What the hell is "2.0 Surround" anyway?

[pipefan413]

I just think at that point in time the Dolby SR-D logo was used to cover all possible configurations. I've seen it on a lot of movies but the one that always springs to mind is True Lies.

Some films I guess they couldn't justify the extra cost of the discrete mix/license fees in much the same way Terminator or Evil Dead 2 missed out on Stereo mixes.

I dunno anything much about True Lies except it's one of the most common LaserDiscs in the wild hahah. What was its native sound mix? 4:2 MP Matrix or 6-track?

And aye that's what I'm thinking, was what I was saying above re. Goofy: maybe it woulda been too hard to justify, despite the logo. Same thing with Halloween, same thing with Terminator: they basically had to pick between shooting on 16 mm and doing 35 mm blowups but having a Dolby Stereo mix, or shooting on 35 mm and only doing mono audio, because 35 mm *and* Dolby was way out of budget. They went for the latter because 16 mm blown up to 35 mm arguably looks worse than mono sounds. So I guess maybe Goofy just stuck to matrix and the 5.1 never happened. But it wouldn't surprise me if they just didn't find a source either...

Which brings me back around to the question: is there a good resource for identifying the specs of theatrical releases? As in, which audio mixes shipped with prints on release?

Dolby Digital was almost always referred to as AC-3 in the laserdisc years, I guess to distinguish it from the PCM stereo track which was merely 'presented' in Dolby Surround.

That's my impression aye, they mostly seem to include AC-3 somewhere in the terminology on LD but less so later on.

[zoidberg]

True Lies was native 5.1.

Film-tech is quite the treasure trove of info, in70mm is good for 70mm 6-track info. Imdb hasn't been the same since they took down all the laserdisc info 

[pipefan413]

True Lies was native 5.1.

Film-tech is quite the treasure trove of info, in70mm is good for 70mm 6-track info. Imdb hasn't been the same since they took down all the laserdisc info 

Ah, I've used in70mm before for info on that stuff e.g. the top post of this thread. And film-tech is one I've mostly stumbled into rather than specifically going to look up stuff. Thanks!

[SpaceBlackKnight]

As to A Goofy Movie, I might have mentioned previously the alleged 5.1 mix was only heard on a rare limited early theatrical run or on the overseas prints Buena Vista International made. Other examples of this, American Graffiti and Mad Max, had 4 track stereo mixes made for the overseas release of the former by Cinema International Corporation and Japanese release of the latter by Warner respectively, whereas AG's US mix and Mad Max's other releases were all mono. It's possible that Disney (or just their US operations) don't have the 5.1 mix element for Goofy, which could very well explain it's absence on every release it's got.

Back to Goofy, did anyone check the US 4:3 DVD for WDP card edit and the alleged censorship that's also on the Blu?

[pipefan413]

As to A Goofy Movie, I might have mentioned previously the alleged 5.1 mix was only heard on a rare limited early theatrical run or on the overseas prints Buena Vista International made. Other examples of this, American Graffiti and Mad Max, had 4 track stereo mixes made for the overseas release of the former by Cinema International Corporation and Japanese release of the latter by Warner respectively, whereas AG's US mix and Mad Max's other releases were all mono. It's possible that Disney (or just their US operations) don't have the 5.1 mix element for Goofy, which could very well explain it's absence on every release it's got.

That could well be what it is, then, aye.

[PDB]

I think I read this whole thread close enough but I'm probably repeating somethings.

Dolby had been working on various digital systems long before DTS. One such system was to actually to replace the optical tracks with digital encoded tracks, before even CDS, that would be de-matrixed into 4.0/4.1. There were a lot of attempts to have discrete sound on 35mm like CDS and a laserdisc system (LC Digital) suspiciously close to what DTS became. It wasn't till DTS started picking up steam with Spielberg and Universal coming on board that Dolby started pushing up their plans.

Dolby Digital is kind of all of those terms at once. It is AC-3, Spectral Recording - Digital (SR-D), Dolby Stereo Digital and Dolby Digital. Internally it was called AC-3 (there was an AC-1, AC-2 and AC-4) but that was never meant to be a marketing term or for use with the public. But we laserdisc guys love our terms so it got stuck on there against what Dolby wanted. You rarely ever see AC-3 referenced in 35mm theaters.

Technically, for Dolby's discrete system on 35mm, the process started out being called Dolby Stereo Digital:

DS-D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr8UMBzMotk

That is what the branding of the system was at the start but not the only branding. As said before the designation Spectral Recording Digital (SR-D) means that the print has analog SR opticals and a digital track also. Both of these terms, DS-D and SR-D are almost the same since any Dolby Stereo Digital would have optical tracks backups and those most likely would be SR. As most Dolby optical tracks after say '88 were SR. I found some references to SR-D logo mostly being featured on Disney/Touchstone/Miramax/etc films (like Goofy) till the DD rebranding in 95-96. Outside of Disney, it seems other studios used the SR-D logo with films that primary had a DTS track and were marketed as such. But I can't confirm that 100%.

(Of course there are many exceptions and odd things like Jurassic Park being Dolby-A)

So when you see those terms they are basically interchangeable. There are fine points of difference and maybe how you are marketing or DTS but effectively they are the same. Dolby rebranded the whole system in the mid 90s to just Dolby Digital.

DD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8q3SwU0h88

Some logos here:
https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Dolby_Stereo
https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Dolby_Digital

Also there were always rumors that Star Trek 6 was the first "test" DS-D film with 2 specials prints made.

[pipefan413]

@PDB Thanks for that, that kinda aligns with some of the stuff I've been wondering.

I suppose one of the main points of uncertainty / frustration can be summarised thusly: whilst it is true that all Dolby Digital (read: discrete digital 6-track / 5.1) prints also had optical Dolby SR (MP Matrix Stereo with Spectral Recording) as a backup / backward compatibility measure... it seems that one cannot assume that all Dolby SR prints necessarily had Dolby Digital on them as well.

I've been discussing this elsewhere w.r.t. both A GOOFY MOVIE and MRS. DOUBTFIRE for instance and I'm feeling increasingly like perhaps MRS. DOUBTFIRE probably only had the Dolby SR but no Digital, and quite possibly A GOOFY MOVIE was the same in the US and if anything might've had a discrete mix either as Digital or as 4-track mag in certain international markets as @SpaceBlackKnight was saying. The home releases are partially why I'm thinking this.

MRS. DOUBTFIRE (1993): Dolby Digital was still quite recent so probably not fully adopted at this stage. Credits just use "Dolby Stereo" logo (but so do credits in BATMAN RETURNS, 1992, even though that was first Dolby Digital film AFAIK). Presumably cost more to licence and print Dolby Digital onto every shipped print and this is a family comedy anyway, not necessarily much call for the additional expense (not a big blockbuster action flick or whatever). LaserDisc only has 2-track matrix PCM and no AC-3 or DTS. DVD apparently has a 5.0 mix which I'm guessing is likely just the matrix 4:2 track run through an SDU4 or something similar, with the surround channel duplicated and (hopefully) cut by 3 dB; US Blu-ray has that but with the addition of LFE as Dolby Digital and then a whole new lossless 5.1 DTS-HD MA which is probably a new mix, maybe from a 6- or 4-track master used to make the original mixes (so not necessarily in any way theatrically accurate).

A GOOFY MOVIE (1995): Dolby SR and Digital are becoming more well-established now and the credits mention all the Dolby terms flying around at the time (SR, Stereo, Digital) with the "verify format" caveat that makes this potentially meaningless as an indicator. Again, could have skipped doing discrete surround track due to the additional cost of shipping prints with Dolby Digital on them because I don't think Disney had then or has now very much faith in this film, which is a shame because it's genuinely brilliant (I'll take this over Frozen any day of the week and if you think I'm wrong I will fight you to the death). LD again lacks AC-3 or DTS, and there's never been a 5.1 mix on any home release that I know of even now: DVDs were both 2.0 even though UK one claims to have 5.1, and Blu-ray is also 2.0 encoded as lossy 320 kbps Dolby AC-3 (which is only a slight step up from the DVD's 2.0 192 kbps AC-3).

The trouble is that I reckon the thing I want here doesn't exist: some resource that will tell me with some reliability whether any given film had a discrete multi-channel surround mix (CDS, Dolby Digital, DTS, SDDS etc.) or only matrixed stereo (Dolby Stereo / SR, Ultra Stereo / DTS Stereo). I suspect the reality is that it's going to have to continue to be a lot of armchair sleuthing, which is irritating from a preservationist standpoint because I may never be certain that what I'm dealing with is actually the original mix for a given film or not.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Some things to add:

MRS. DOUBTFIRE was definitely Dolby Stereo LRCS only. Of course it was not only a low/mid-budget family comedy, but (JP/bigger blockbusters aside) was made before DD5.1/DTS went into wide use on most everything (including star studded romcoms) around 95/96. The 5.0 on first non-anamorphic and the later SE DVDs are most probably a discrete version of the 4 track audio master, but with the back mono channel fed to the rear L/Rs without any stereotization (Rather odd Fox did it like that when they were also doing DD 4.0 discrete tracks on several 50s to 90s titles). However, some 5.1 tracks on non-DD/DTS native titles (both 5.1 mixes for the Doubfire BD, plus the 1998 DTS DVD of Predator for example) just take their 4 track audio masters and add reverb to the rears, plus extract the base crossover from the front and rear channels to create a .1 LFE track and voila, simple 5.1!

Most other titles with 5.1 tracks as we all know are "reworkings" to a degree. Some range from minimal things like swapping out music with soundtrack/master recordings, smoothing over weird/choppy editing at certain hard cuts (5.1 on the UHD of Predator), to livening up the mix by adding/replacing with new SFX for things such as footsteps or explosions. Others go as far as complete sound reworkings ala The Terminator or worse, some animated stuff (JPN Patlabor and Gundam movies I hear) having a fully redubbed modern cast for the original language track.

[PDB]

The lore behind Batman Returns was that it was a real rush behind the scenes to get it ready for DD 5.1. Dolby was behind DTS which was gaining real momentum, so there was a real big push to get it out there. I guess its possible that the end credit was created before the decision to go DD 5.1? Or maybe before they had an official logo?

I had to go look up a conversation I remembered from Film-tech, this might help you a little:

Batman Returns was the first motion picture released in Dolby Stereo Digital (aka Dolby SR-D, AC-3, Dolby Digital), and the first batch of theaters to install the system and present the movie in the format are identified below.

The theaters screening the Dolby Stereo Digital presentation of Batman Returns were arguably the best in which to experience the movie and the only way at the time to faithfully hear the movie’s discrete multichannel audio mix and with incredible sonic clarity. The channel layout for Dolby’s digital audio format was: three discrete screen channels + two discrete surround channels + low-frequency enhancement. (The balance of the 2,000+ domestic prints of Batman Returns were a combination of Dolby SR and Dolby A four-channel matrix-encoded, limited bandwidth formats.)

Prior to the release of Batman Returns in June 1992, there were un-promoted Dolby Stereo Digital test screenings of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (released December 1991) and Newsies (April 1992).

So it looks like the end credit is technically correct, since vast majority of prints were SR and A and few people heard it in 5.1 unlike DTS' rollout.


Dolby originally intended 35mm Dolby Digital as a replacement for 70mm in high profile cinemas and SR optical being good enough for all other theaters. DTS definitely up-ended that very conservative deployment strategy. Very few theaters installed Dolby Digital system between June of 1992 and April of 1995.

Dolby Digital always had great title support from the outset. More movies were being released in Dolby Digital than DTS or SDDS. Initially, Disney's studios and Warner Brothers were supporting Dolby Digital exclusively. Even some indie studios did releases in Dolby Digital in the early to mid 1990's. Nevertheless, the installation pace for Dolby Digital was abysmal...

Dolby Digital's slow installation pace was one reason why both Warner Bros. and Disney opted to add SDDS to their release prints. Warner Bros. briefly supported DTS before going the SRD/SDDS route with Interview With the Vampire.


http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f12/t001143.html

and a discussion about DTS

http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f1/t011487.html

I actually saw JP on DTS in one of those theaters.

One last point. Recently a friend, discovered a film's end credit (and imdb) said Dolby Digital only. Which is true, the film was initially released in DD, only to have a DTS release a few weeks later. So you can't always trust the end credits.

[pipefan413]

The lore behind Batman Returns was that it was a real rush behind the scenes to get it ready for DD 5.1. Dolby was behind DTS which was gaining real momentum, so there was a real big push to get it out there. I guess its possible that the end credit was created before the decision to go DD 5.1? Or maybe before they had an official logo?

I had to go look up a conversation I remembered from Film-tech, this might help you a little:

(...)

See, information like this is what gives me life. Thank you.

I had sort of assumed what you just validated about Dolby Digital being intended as a 70 mm replacement (as opposed to for wide deployment). They had just spent a lot of time/effort/money embedding Dolby Stereo (as in 4:2 matrix) as the go-to format for 35 mm cinema, so it makes sense they'd want to stand behind that and retain 6-track mixes for the types of theatres that already had 6-track in the first place (70 mm). I had zero info the back up that assumption though, I was just guessing! So it's amusing to see it turns out that was exactly the plan. I did a bit of reading a while back about the early days of things like Ultra Stereo and DTS which was also really entertaining stuff.

It occurs to me that it's incredibly strange that I don't own either of the first two Batman films on LD yet. That simply won't do...