[In progress] Face / Off and Broken Arrow

[CSchmidlapp]

Original Thread / Post

Hi Fan Ressers.

I'm wondering if somebody could help me

I'm looking for the best version of the original 2.0 surround mix of Face / Off.
I have a version on the R1 DVD but its DD compressed and I'm guessing the best version available will be on a laserdisc somewhere. 
Ive never had a Laserdisc player and thus my knowledge on what are the best versions of discs ect is zero!

EDIT: Ive updated the thread title to cover Broken Arrow and all the audio mixes in general

What began as a request for the original 2.0 mix of Face/Off has become a project for both this and Broken Arrow.

Over the past year Ive been playing around with and using AVIsynth scripts to watch my films in my collection that just need small corrections.
This began with 25fps slowdown to 23.976, clean up with upscale on my DVD's to 'red' removal on old HD masters that has been discussed all over this forum.

Over the past few months I pushed the Color Correction to try an emulate what I had learnt about 35mm print characteristic's.
Once again debated over this forum it does seem to suggest that alot of the more 'Teal' transfers are indeed more accurate to there Theatrical presentation.

So....
 
Broken Arrow

The MPEG 2 Encoded BD transfer has a very pinkish push to it.
Ive removed that but pushed alittle further as I play.
I have no idea if what I have done is even close to how it looked in the cinema! But I do much prefer this look.

VIDEO:



AUDIO:

DTS-HD.MA 5.1 "from the Bluray"
DTS 5.1 "from the DTS Laserdisc" Thanks Zoidberg
PCM 2.0 surround mix "from the Laserdisc" Thanks Zoidberg

More details TBA

Face / Off

Ive used the VC1 encoded 'Russian' BLU and top and tailed it with the 'Paramount' logo taken from the Braveheart UHD
Once again the transfer leaned toward red but not nearly as much at Broken Arrow.
My opinion on the results are the same as on Broken Arrow.

VIDEO:



AUDIO:

PCM 5.1 "from the BD"
DTS-ES 6.1 "from the US BD. Im assuming this is the same at the DD-EX mix included on this disc)
PCM 2.0 Surround "from the Laserdisc" Recieved and synced, Thanks Zoidberg
x2 commentary tracks "from the US BD"

More details TBA

I will update this post as the project progresses.
I do have some Work In Progress renders (mentioned through the tread) should any long time members be interested in viewing.
They have been rendered using my AMD RX480's Hardware encoder to low bitrate H264 videos with DD+ 5.1 audio.
They come in around 8 to 10gb a piece.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Case you wonder, the 2.0 mix for Face/Off is not the original mix. Like several other movies that were mixed natively in 5.1, an alternate LRCS mix that was made for the Dolby Surround optical track on 35mm prints as well as the VHS release. I assume the R1 DVD you have with this mix is the non-anamorphic 1999 Paramount release? It uses the same master as Paramount's 1997 letterbox Laserdisc and ported over this track as well as the original DD 5.1 mix (the Paramount DVD has DVD Dolby spec encoding, which makes it at a lower bitrate than the LD but should sound essentially the same being it's the same master).

The original mix was 5.1 but exists in Dolby Digital and DTS flavors. Starting with the Paramount R1 Collectors Edition Series DVD and continuing on to the HD DVD and Paramount BD, they went with a DTS-ES 6.1 mix as well as a DD 5.1 EX track. Both of these tracks are remixes as DTS-ES and DD EX debuted after Face/Off was released, and probably have differences in not only volumes but maybe alternate or missing effects and music cues. The Dolby Digital 5.1 mix is on the R1 non-anamorphic DVD as well as most of the Buena Vista R2/3/4 DVDs and the Buena Vista Blu-Ray. The DTS 5.1 mix AFAIK is only on the R2 JPN DVD as well as the R3 Korean and Thai ones and the Buena Vista Blu in uncompressed PCM. AFAIK, there was no DTS Laserdisc ever released not even in the US or Japan.

Forgot to mention the UK releases are cut for a certain sequence, but are all the same Buena Vista master.

[zoidberg]

an alternate LRCS mix that was made for the Dolby Surround optical track on 35mm prints

Which would make it the original 2.0 Dolby Surround mix 

CSchmidlapp, your best bet is the NTSC LD, which I just so happen to have. I will gladly capture it for you if you don't mind waiting

[CSchmidlapp]

I assume the R1 DVD you have with this mix is the non-anamorphic 1999 Paramount release?.

Thanks for your detailed reply SpaceBlackKnight, i'm after the original 2.0 mix for purely preservation. 
This is indeed the original DVD release I own (although it s anamorphic). I was lucky enough to have a really nice multi-region DVD player back in the day as the original U.K release was a flipper and censored (I believe).
Which brings me to....

Forgot to mention the UK releases are cut for a certain sequence, but are all the same Buena Vista master.

The Buena Vista BLU is now uncut with both 'butterfly' knife scenes fully intact as the censor has waved all cuts.
It is also the best looking release I know of with a lot, lot less DNR ect than the paramount.
Interestingly both masters match up perfectly timecode wise with the only differences being the open and close logo screens (plus just 'Paramount Pictures Presents' in the opening titles).
Its great to know the PCM on this disc is the original mix.
I gather the DD-EX comes from the same mix as the DTS 6.1, where just the encoding formats differ?

EDIT: Sorry It appears I'm talking utter rubbish. The disc I have been using is the Russian release and not the U.K one! Weird that I thought otherwise and have a vague memory of hearing they had waved the cuts! im getting old lol.

an alternate LRCS mix that was made for the Dolby Surround optical track on 35mm prints

Which would make it the original 2.0 Dolby Surround mix 

CSchmidlapp, your best bet is the NTSC LD, which I just so happen to have. I will gladly capture it for you if you don't mind waiting

Awesome
Cheers Zoidberg, it would be great if you could capture it for me when you have the time.
You don't happen to have 'Broken Arrow' also do you?

[zoidberg]

If you have a LD player owning Broken Arrow is mandatory lol. I've got the AC-3 and DTS discs

[CSchmidlapp]

If you have a LD player owning Broken Arrow is mandatory lol. I've got the AC-3 and DTS discs

Hahahahahaha

I do remember it sounding awesome at the cinema and I imagine it was a bit of a 'reference' LD to show off your equipment.
Probably a silly question but do they also contain the 2.0 mix like Face/Off?
And anybody know if the AC-3 and DTS tracks differ from the Blu-ray release?

[zoidberg]

AC-3 laserdiscs have PCM 2.0 whereas DTS tracks occupy the digital track so they have 2.0 on the analogue tracks, unless there's a commentary track in which case there'll only be a mono track.

Going back to Broken Arrow I couldn't tell you of any differences in the mixes other than all the LD tracks (PCM, AC-3 and DTS) sound so much better than the blu it's not funny. That sweet sweet baritone guitar

[CSchmidlapp]

AC-3 laserdiscs have PCM 2.0 whereas DTS tracks occupy the digital track so they have 2.0 on the analogue tracks, unless there's a commentary track in which case there'll only be a mono track.

Going back to Broken Arrow I couldn't tell you of any differences in the mixes other than all the LD tracks (PCM, AC-3 and DTS) sound so much better than the blu it's not funny. That sweet sweet baritone guitar

Wow. Looks like I may have a few projects coming up
If you can supply me with them bud that would be amazing.
Duane Eddy and Zimmer need full spectrum dominance.
I'm hoping a UHD for both on the horizon, but I doubt they will contain these legacy mixes and somebody has to look after Woo's American output.

[zoidberg]

I'll see what I can do 

Broken Arrow has been on my 'maybe' projects list for a while, I picked up an 8mm trailer recently and I just absolutely dig the film colours. The plan was to regrade the quite-pink blu (probably a one-light or scene-by-scene if need be), get rid of the funky moiré lines and add the LD soundtracks. Nothing too fancy

[CSchmidlapp]

Here is where I am