Ghost in the Shell

[Doctor M]

I wonder if wiping clean the "cel elements" (including line "edge thinning/sharpening" -- I once read of an Avisynth plug-in that was designed to do that) and then regraining them back into the frame, would be useful for creating a fake "true HD/UHD"?

BTW, while looking around, I came across a couple of "archived"  reddit threads about Judgment (1) & Judgment v2. They're mostly "chatty" but still good for information digging.

reddit - [ANIME] Ghost in the Shell (1995)[HDTV][x264][1080p][4.59GB]

reddit - [ANIME] Ghost in the Shell (1995)(Judgment v2)[HDTV][x264][1080p][10.69GB]

Are you talking about aWarpSharp? http://www.aquilinestudios.org/avsfilter...awarpsharp
(Link has a great mouse-over demonstration of filter.)

[der richter]

i can only advice against using any kind of line thinning, sharpening or warping for the purpose of making the video sharper. it will only kill details we don't want killed and make the video look drawn like with water colours if done heavily. though some people like that effect, i am not one of them.

the more pressing question here is, what is the problem and what do you want to accomplish exactly?

[CSchmidlapp]

@der richter.
What do you know of the original creation process of GITS?
We have done some homework in this thread and took a few guesses, but any other information would be great

[der richter]

nothing really specific or anything i can back up. i was under the impression that the whole movie was processed via a digital intermediate, which would explain some of the characteristics of the transfer itself.

here a quote of me after someone said the UHD BD has to be better because of new technologies, better resolution, wider colour space, higher bit depth and that the transfer was done from an analogue master.

i don't want to burst a bubble here, those are theoretical improvements but the practical improvement are most likely far smaller. Ghost in the Shell is indeed capped on a 35mm that has a theoretical resolution of 1400 to 2700 pixels per picture height, depending on the different sources one can cite (for example ITU (2001), 35mm Cinema Film Resolution Test Report, ITU-R Doc. 6-9/3). though keep in mind this was produced before 1995 and most likely with a Digital Intermediate (this got popular at the beginning of the nineties and technology back than wasn't really perfect), meaning it was was scanned in the process to do various post processing steps. after that it was printed back on film. back then common film scanners had a resolution of around 2K, if i am not mistaken. the resolution was furthermore capped by the space needed for such scans. for 4:4:4 RGB 10bit, which was common back then, it's around maybe 2TB (it was a lot back then) but probably even more. those scans were also restricted by the colour space used, which most like is less than todays standards. anyway to not go even further (everything is also a bit simplified), the actual new scan was done with the print of the digital post processed scan (Digital Intermediate). therefore resolution, colour and anything else are not defined by the properties of the (original) 35mm film, but the worst common denominator and that is the Digital Intermediate which was worse than what 35mm film is capable of.

to say it simple, things that aren't there in the first place can't come back with all the new buzzwords that the film industry wants to sell us.

i don't think just the difference in improved techniques between BD and UHD BDs has a big enough merit that it has a significant impact on the possible quality of that specific source. i am not saying it won't have any improvements but those are negligible compared to the obvious source flaws that are still present.

another reply from me after it was said not the whole movie had to be completely digitally processed (only parts of it) since only a few scene look like they were.

a Digitally Intermediate doesn't just apply to the scenes that "look like something was added digitally", it's also used for cutting, splicing, dirt removal, colour grading, just everything that was also done traditionally. it could cut costs tremendously and was a lot less time intensive. giving this is 'just' an anime movie and that they don't really get that much of a budget compared to LA movies, it's very likely the whole movie was just processed digitally and printed back on film even if some scenes weren't really touched. out of simplicity it's even more likely.

so this is more or less me assuming a 'worst case scenario'. anyway there are far more variables that i can even guess how the whole movie was produced. in the end we sadly have to live with what we got.

[BronzeTitan]

Are you talking about aWarpSharp?  http://www.aquilinestudios.org/avsfilter...awarpsharp
(Link has a great mouse-over demonstration of filter.)

Although that particular page looks vaguely familiar (after all, anime is anime ), I'm sure there was another page, but with like concerns and demonstrations.

But, yes, that's the sort of thing (impressive, too) to which I was referring.

.

i can only advice against using any kind of line thinning, sharpening or warping for the purpose of making the video sharper. it will only kill details ... the more pressing question here is, what is the problem and what do you want to accomplish exactly?

I was only referring to the cel drawings themselves ... definitely not the background/painted artwork. The cels, in their truest sense, are vector graphics. What I thought could be accomplished was to replace the sub-HD cels to exact replicas of HD/UHD-sized cels. Then process them to include all the degrading they would naturally experience in filming, to match what the backgrounds went through.

Naturally, one would compare and target it's outcome against animations that already have been filmed for HD/UHD, for a technically matching outcome.

I really like this idea and must try a proof-of-concept (in a paint program) to create a fake "true HD/UHD" ... if I can find the time (I'm already backed up on other things that I must finish first).

[der richter]

The cels, in their truest sense, are vector graphics.

i know i am going to be really opinionated, but that comment rubs me a bit in a wrong way.

sry, i have to completely disagree here. you never get true hard edges. there will always be some 'blurring', gradients, etc when zoomed in. referring to anime as vector graphics in any way is just plainly wrong and is a complete misconception, with some exception where vector drawings were actually used or a vector look was the goal. especially with traditionally produced and painted anime that is never the case. there is texture, various line thicknesses and types, etc.

i can agree that GitS is especially blurry and some kind of smart warping could improve edges and semi hard edges. though this will be especially hard without killing the finer details, or maybe even near to impossible. the only viable (fast) way that comes to mind would be to train a neural network on similar but good artwork and try to use that for smart warping or upscaling.

[BronzeTitan]

Well, I never said it would be easy. "The difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer." 

With your closeness to anime, what anime would you recommend that is technically in the style of GITS and has been released as a proper HD/UHD -- you know, where all the details come through, as one would expect from a live-action movie HD/UHD release?

[der richter]

this is quite a hard question. off the top of my head for anime that look similar and have good BDs:
- Jin-Rou (probably one of the most similar one and the BD is a lot nicer)
- Perfect Blue (the BD might be a bit too blurry, but similar)
- Sennen Joyuu (similar to Perfect Blue but a lot sharper)
- Ginga Eiyuu Densetsu (the older movies not the series)
- Berseker (the first series, very nice and clean)
- Evangelion (first series, character art might be bit too different)
- Akira (maybe a bit too simple character art)

at least that are the anime i would look into first, if i want to train a NN.

[BronzeTitan]

Ooo-o-o! Jin-Rou looks like GITS's twin sister (YouTube - Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade Trailer - Bandai Entertainment). I'll try to find matching DVD and HD samples -- backgrounds with medium-shot cels.

[der richter]

here are some screenshots of the first few minutes.