Looking for the "right" Alien Resurrection color grading...

[zoidberg]

I heard that the DP for Alien Resurrection threw a fit when he saw that they hadn't used an ENR master for the Blu Ray. Can't remember where I heard it though

[spoRv]

OK, first: I HATE YOU ALL!

No, just kidding... or not? Well, I "forced" myself to connect the laserdisc to the old capture card (AJA cable is somewhere, not connected), and, after I managed to let the PC crash (and interrupt a usual long lossy encoding just in the middle...) due to wrong settings (it happens often with VirtualDub, at least with my rig, maybe it hates to manage two capture cards in the same computer case) I finally captured some minutes of the THX DTS laserdisc... and, guess what?

BINGO! Even if, at the beginning, it seemed to have the same, or very close, color grading of the BD (and DVD, and HDTV) - and it has, sometime - usually it is not the case! I compared just the HDTV, because I have it ready on HDD, but the BD has the same, exact color grading (comparison made few days ago).

So, some notes; on HDTV, faces are often pale, but with an almost natural color; on LD, they tend to be a sort of golden; all colors on the latter are vivid, they pop up, and it's a strange thing, as usually the LD has dull colors, as format itself... I also tried to lower the saturation, and the colors remain different, so it's not (only) a saturation difference...

Maybe I should capture it all, and then made a detailed comparison (and eventually - sigh! - a preservation project)...
Stay tuned!

Quick'n'dirt comparison: top HDTV, bottom LD captured with default settings, left "as is"









Time to sleep now, almost 3am here...

[PDB]

No one was calling you out mike. Just trying to figure out what is going on.

spoRv, I'm still getting the same results (ie the LD looks the same) but I'm sure Jonno's capture is from the THX/DD LD. I grabbed a few random shots; my RAID is being fixed right now so I'm limited as to what I can get

LD 7.5IRE/LD 0 IRE/BD (may not be same frame)

[spoRv]

First of all, sorry, but the post I written was somehow not posted, hence the placeholder remained there for many hours... think that I spent an hour to write it... oh, well, let's start again, but this time, long story short!

Four times I put out the Alien Resurrection DTS laserdisc from the shelves: first, to make a quick'n'dirt comparison, thinking its colors were, more or less, the same as BD; second time, when dvdmike claimed the colors were different, so I captured just a snippet; third, I captured the whole disc in a single file - double wrong, I haven't followed my own directions, so dropped frames and herringbone patterns on side B; fourth (and I hope last) time this night, every other program switched off, sides captured each one in its file, using the same "player side", everything fine.

Capture rig: Pioneer CLD-D925, composite cable, AverMedia capture card (Philips 9bit ADC), VirtualDub using the following settings:
Brightness: 128 - Contrast: 68 - Hue: 0 - Saturation: 64 - Sharpness: 0 (that should be default ones)
lossless encoded to HuffYUV; only black levels slightly lowered; I used here the HDTV for comparison, but this is applicable to BD as well, as they have the same colors; now finally the BD is ready in my HDD, so from now on I'll refer to it.

First thing: DTS laserdisc has NOT the THX certification like the AC3 one... it may means nothing, or everything; fact is, dunno if due to different players, capture cards, settings, a mix of those, but my capture (DTS) and the one made by Jonno (THX AC3) and posted by PDB in the previous post, are different; can't be sure if they are effectively different - both should be captured with the same player, capture card, settings; so, the following thought *may* apply also to the THX AC3 laserdisc.

Color grading: LD and BD (and HDTV & DVD, apart *maybe* first DVD edition that *should* retain the LD colors, don't know if they are the same of this DTS LD, though) have different colors; LD ones "pop up", very golden skin tones, while BD is dull but skin tones are natural. This is weird, because usually LD has dull colors, even due to its inherent analog format; I bet they used a SuperNTSC encoder for this edition, because the colors are very intense; I also thought that it could only be a matter of saturation level, so I increased the BD saturation by 1/3rd and compared to untouched LD; I did also the contrary, and decreased the LD saturation by 1/4th and compared it to untouched BD. Results? Now some shots seems closer, but still they are not "so" close, and color differences remain, in particular with skin tones.

Contrast: LD has different contrast; when color matched using LD as reference, BD reveals some more details in the shadows, and also in the lighter parts, so it appears more "punchy"; so, it sure helps to improve the overall image, and the cause of dull colors of the BD along its lower saturation.

Magenta: oh, yes, it is present in this BD, too! Where? Everywhere! Just take a look at: flames, explosions, flash lights, even light reflected in the water... they all share that magenta blanket... that is not present in any way in the LD at all!

Conclusion: is it possible that the DTS LD actually used a silver retention processed print for its master? I can't be sure, but if there is a chance that only one release has it, it's probably this one!

Comparison pictures: top LD, bottom HDTV









and the last "magical magenta" shot, LD vs BD:


A special thanks to dvdmike, that is claiming that LD has a different color grading in comparison to other media since a long time, not only here and on OT, but also on lddb, blu-ray and other forums as well!

[spoRv]

(note: I updated the previous post with important notes, so please read it before this one!)

OK, BD is ready, and comfortly sitting in one of the well-functioning HDDs!
First considerations: after a quick look, color grading is the same, if not identical, to the HDTV; the latter misses few frames here and there (a dozen), while LD missed just a single unimportant frame, probably at the reel change - it was so easy to find it, this time... LD has more image details on both sides, while less on bottom; this isn't a proof they used different masters, but I think is a strong evidence...

As noted before with HDTV, BD has this "magenta problem" (we should find a proper name for this... "magenta affair"? "magenta blanket"? should I start a poll just for this?), image lacks "punchiness" found on LD, due to its color dullness and lower contrast; LD, albeit misses the natual skin tones (but, do we really need it in a sci-fi movie, also full of brownish tints, more than Alien 3 if possible?), in my opinion retain a much better image, punchy, alive, "happy" somehow (for what it could mean in a movie like this, of course)...

I decided to use newer comparisons here, in particular to show also the "magenta affair" (or whatever): LD top, BD bottom

[PDB]

I'm not sure, something is still not right. Not disagreeing with your findings spoRv. Its clear the from your cap that the DTS LD is more yellow and I agree the magenta is terrible on the HDTV/BD (as well as being WAY too dark).

What makes me pause is the DTS LD being more colorful (not the different color part). The whole point of a silver/enr/cce/etc (there are many ways to create the same thing) process is to dull the colors and pop the contrast and highlights. In that way the colors and contrast of the HDTV broadcast looks more like a silver process to me.

Side note: You can actually create a fake silver print by taking your color video, duplicating it as B+W layer and overlay the original color layer and the B+W (also tweaking the brightness/luma on the color layer). Basically thats what happens when they don't wash away the excess silver in the 35mm world, it forms a B+W layer. So if I took my RW regrade this is what it would look like

Regrade/Regrade "silver"


So apply that to one of your DTS LD pics I get this:


Not the same as the HDTV/BD but definitely in spitting distance

[spoRv]

PDB, we are here to discuss, right? So let's do it!

Frankly, I haven't seen any movie in the theaters which used a silver retention process, so I'm far to define myself an expert; the little I know is based upon what I read on the net, so take it with a grain of salt, OK?

As mush as I understood, silver retention, retaining silver as the name suggests, give the images more contrast; but this doesn't imply to have dull colors...

From https://www.theasc.com/magazine/nov98/so...ur/pg2.htm:

Frank Ricotta, senior vice president of worldwide technical and engineering operations at Technicolor Hollywood, elaborates, "By retaining silver density in the image, you will increase the contrast by making the blacks blacker, and, since you have increased contrast in the shadows, you can see more detail. The images will appear slightly sharper because of the increased contrast and, because there is silver in the film physically, it gives you a little bit of an edge-effect around the image. Finally, by virtue of having silver in the print, it will slightly desaturate the colors, depending upon the level of ENR used."

Shortly after the release of Seven, the laboratory introduced its Adjustable Contrast Enhancement (ACE) process, which shares many of the same features of CCE, but is also scalable, like its Technicolor cousin, ENR.

The director, Jean-Pierre Jeunet, compared our ACE check-print with his ENR answer print and was quite happy with the result

"When we're presented with films like Alien: Resurrection or The X-Files — where the filmmakers want deep blacks, but still want the colors to look true and have a good level of chroma and texture in the mid-scale regions — we'll back off from CCE and give them ACE," Wood explains. "With ACE, we can give them 30, 40 or 60 percent, or whatever level they want. We can make those specific nuances by making chemical changes in the process. We did about 3,000 prints for both Alien: Resurrection and The X-Files, and both were released with about a 50 percent level of ACE."

(I know these are the same things posted on OT by Jetrell Fo three years ago, but "repetita juvant" )

Talking about colors, if the ENR (and ACE as well) "will slightly desaturate the colors", then a 50% ACE should retain almost all the colors; and the DP had surely taken in account this.

Also, directors and DPs have all their own style; more, if they work together, the style would be similar for their films; Jean-Pierre Jeunet worked with Darius Khondji in Delicatessen, The City of Lost Children and Alien Resurrection (that, by coincidence, all used SR); apart the latter we are talking about here, I clearly remember the former two has vivid colors (can't remember if they had deep blacks, though); I watched them only on video, so they could be not from SR, but, according to the previous statements, the colors would be only slightly desaturated... and, to me, a colorful movie is something like "Speed Racer" or "Jupiter Ascending"... while AR has some strong colors that pop out from a dark, less colored background - don't know if I have explained it well.

So, at the end, following what the experts in this field wrote, it could always be possible that the DTS LD used silver retention master, don't you think? In this LD, the blacks are blacker, there are more details in the shadow, the contrast is higher, as well as sharpness... all effects found on a SR print, right?

Or, saying that BD used the SR master (or, better, tried to recreate it somehow), then the DTS LD used the non-SR master, and should be preserved as well, because it's one of the original theatrical timing... or, at the end, both used arbitrary colors and none is a good representation of a release print!

A word about the "magenta affair": I'm pretty sure this was not in the release print, as the Fox logo is affected as well - take a look at the light rays...

[spoRv]

Unimportant updates: while LD misses a frame in comparison to BD, the latter misses two frames in another shot. Also, BD has a missing red light in a frame; can't understand why, as they are there in the same shot, few frames before and after it...

EDIT: to whom it may concern, this is the comparison clip: https://vimeo.com/202423916

[PDB]

I've actually seen AR in SR in a THX certified theater (back when that was a big thing). I know it was an SR print since a buddy of mine ran the projector. Do I remember what it looks like? Nope. Not that I trust my memory more then anyone else's. I do remeber not being able to make out fully what the Augria looked like and seeing its Facehugger design in the art of Alien Resurrection.

But that's just anecdotal.

SR does give you less colorful prints and yes ACE can give you more colors but I doubt it was used for that much since that look they were selling is the the high contrast, desaturated SR look on the cheap. Anyway, I've read that ASC article before and I interpret 50% differently. Meaning that enough chroma info was removed for the colors to be dulled. My Road Warrior example is about a 50% blend and I would call the colors dulled/desat.

I have never seen a colorful (in the traditional sense) Khondji lensed film. But perhaps your interpretation of colorful and mine are totally different. And as black/contrast, the man is so well know for that,he is even hired to create that look:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/movies...ondji.html

As for the contrast it looks pretty similar to me outside of the video difference between LDs and BDs. Hell the BD/HDTV is still darker. I had to adjust the IRE on the THX LD and once done it looked pretty close to the BD, also.

The only big difference I see is the yellow/gold (and magenta). Is that the original look or the ACE look? Don't know. Outside of the yellow everything else seem consistent. Even the water that dvdmike pointed out earlier in this thread looks the same on all versions. If you remove the yellow and white balance the picture, it looks pretty similar to the other versions. But that's one color change not a contrast change. I mean the BD/HDTV is yellow just not at the same level.

So in the end I don't think AR BD used a ENR print, not sure I even said it did. Why would they, it would be a negative or IP scan anyway. But is the DTS LD an ENR print? Is the BD and THX LD color corrected? Don't know. I suspect they are the same source with different levels adjusted.

[spoRv]

PDB, I just finished to watch the raw, lossless LD capture, along with the BD audio; I've watched the special edition on BD just few days ago, so my memory is still fresh - for how much MY memory could be fresh!

Golden skin tones: I was wrong, partly... because, when just watching at screenshots, you can't have an idea of what it looks like in motion... I thought skin was golden for the whole movie, but this is not the case; it is pink (for caucasian, at least) where it must be, and golden when there are yellow lights that are reflected by the skin; for example, in the clones room, Ripley has a golden skin when looking at the clones in the tanks, while it is pink when it leaves that part of the room, and stands near clone #7; in the BD, skin is just a bit yellowish, retaining almost all its natural color, that should NOT have in this occasion - as in many other ones.

Magenta: I'm pretty sure it's a byproduct (or a plain error) of the digital regrade done for the DVD quadrilogy, ported to BD (you know, studios are lazy...); as I wrote, it is present everywhere there is a flash light, flames, explosions, gun flares, water reflections etc. - the fact is, in the LD every single occasion where BD has that magenta blanket, has its own color... light flashes are usually white, while they are blue in the hosts room, flames are yellow/orange, explosions are orange/red, gun flares red/pink, water reflections green/blue...

Colors: I tried to apply different settings to the BD to let it look like LD (and also the contrary), mainly luminance levels, saturation and hue, but, when i get near in a shot, all the others are much different; colors are not the same - for example, Call's jacket is blue in the BD and green in the LD, water (seen from above) is cyan in the BD, and teal in the LD. So I don't think it's just a matter of levels or saturation or hues settings here; they have distinct contrast and color palettes - of course enphatized by the fact LD is more saturated than BD (or that BD is less saturated than LD). It's a bit like Aliens on BD and D-Theater; they have just different color palettes.

Colorful, or less: in the link you posted, the second image is from "Se7en"; well, to me, that is colorful. About others work of Khondji, looking at these screenshots, they recall me quite much the "spirit" of the LD:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Delicatess...creenshots
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-City-o...creenshots

Contrast: maybe I shoud clarify how I use this term... when I talk about contrast, I mean the dynamic range of the luminance, hence the difference between the lowest and highest levels; in this term, LD has a bigger contrast in many shots, and it's similar only in few ones; the BD has a lower black level in some shots, but usually the contrary is true; the fact is, in many shots where the LD has an almost full dynamic range, BD has the higher levels "capped" somehow... in others, the black level of the BD is higher, while the white levels are similar... there is not a standard "behaviour", but you can have an idea of what I'm talking about if you take a look at the following sequential frames, with histograms:



as you can see, in the first frame contrast (dynamic range) is similar, and LD has lower black level; in the second, LD has higher black level, but much higher white level, hence bigger contrast; in the third, black levels are similar in both, still LD has higher white level, and subsequentially contrast.

So, I stand with my statement that DTS LD has higher contrast (dynamic range) in many shots... isn't this the result of the silver retention process, after all?