[Released] Terminator 2 CDS mix

[MerolaC]

I am sorry to bump this.
Can anyone please, PM me a link to the DTS track of the CDS mix?
I am so desperately searching for it

Thank you in advance.

[pipefan413]

After reading myself through virtually all threads about this topic now, fidelity-wise there seems to be the consensus that the DTS track from the Japanese DVD is the best source. What remains uncertain (for me) is whether the surround levels of the AC3 or the DTS are the correct ones now as they differ about 3dB.

I can provide you both but the DTS only in its original, unedited form.

I suppose one way to try to confirm this (not with certainty, but to some degree anyway) would be to check the surround levels on the later DTS-HD MA version from that French theatrical cut BD. I've tried to import a copy but I can't seem to find it anywhere, probably due to being several releases late to the party. (I saw the 3D version of T2 in the cinema and it left a sour taste in my mouth that I'd previously had when the Skynet Edition turned out to be mince as well, so I haven't attempted a re-watch ever since then.)

If the surround levels on the DTS-HD MA are like the DTS track, then the DTS is perhaps more likely to have the correct attenuation; likewise with the AC-3 version. But obviously mistakes are being made right, left and centre when it comes to T2 so who the hell really knows?

[pipefan413]

Trying to clarify all this but I'm missing some info (mostly around the sources used for the TeamBlu version). I'm making some assumptions here that I would like to make sure are correct before I get deeper down the wrong path, if they're not. There's a lot of info in this thread at this point, and a lot of info that isn't (as far as I can tell), so I thought it might be good to try to summarise everything (I think) I know about these to see if it's helpful to anybody else as well.

What I *think* is as follows...


CINEMA DIGITAL SURROUND MIX (5.1)

There are at least three encodes of the original 5.1 Cinema Digital Surround (CDS) mix repurposed for home video releases: a Dolby Digital one from that same 1997 US DVD, a 1509 kbps DTS one from the 2003 JP DVD, and a slightly more processed / cleaned up DTS-HD Master Audio one that was featured at least on the French HD-DVD and 2-disc French BD from 2008 (this was later restructured into a single-disc version with seamless branching that formed the basis of the 2008 JP BD and 2009 Skynet Edition BDs, which necessessitated replacing the theatrical audio with remix audio because of the special edition / extended edition branching; the UK got a single-disc version that only had disc 2, the special edition, without the theatrical cut and therefore without theatrical audio).

The version used by TeamBlu was synchronised by jonno to the Skynet Edition then given to TeamBlu to use with their release. However, I'm not certain which video TeamBlu used, so I couldn't know without checking if they did any resync / delay. Comparing the files, it seems not, so either they used a Skynet Edition (which seems unlikely) or they used the slightly earlier 2008 JP BD (less DNR etc.) and it happens to have the exact same sync as the Skynet Edition (which would not be that surprising given it appears to be the case that the Skynet Edition was extrapolated from that same master).


SURROUND REMIXES (variously either 5.1 matrix, discrete 6.1, 5.1, and in the case of some dubs, 7.1)

The surround remix was initially created for the 2000 US DVD ("Ultimate Edition") and was mixed in 6.1, then encoded as both Dolby Digital 5.1 EX and DTS-ES Matrix 5.1 (in other words, Dolby and DTS versions of matrixed 5.1 that decodes to extrapolate an extra mono rear surround channel from the 5.1 encode, so you get L, C, L, Ls, Rs, and Cs). Both of these encodes were also later included on the 2006 US BD.

A couple of years later, the 2008 JP BD got the remix in 5.1 TrueHD while retaining the "EX" moniker so this should theoretically decode back to 6.1 as well. This seems to be the TrueHD mix that TeamBlu used, since it's the only one I'm aware of existing... which again feels like further evidence that they used the 2008 JP BD video track as well, and just included the audio it came with alongside jonno CDS mix resync and the commentary tracks (which I'll get to in a minute).

Later still, lossless DTS-HD Master Audio versions of the remix were done for the "Skynet Editions" including the 2009 US BD (which also had the lossy Dolby Digital 5.1 EX one from before) and 2009 UK BD (which didn't, because it had more audio dubs to include). Curiously, it appears that the US version's DTS-HD MA track keeps the same matrixed 5.1 encoding as before, but the slightly later UK version goes for discrete 6.1; whether this mix is actually better or worse overall, I've yet to check. The 2015 US BD, which seems like a less processed version of the Skynet Edition master (and therefore I'm assuming is probably very very similar, if not identical, to the 2008 JP BD encode) uses the 5.1 DTS-HD MA remix, but there's no mention of this being matrixed so I presume it's not, meaning that the audio originally intended to be matrix decoded to a separate centre surround channel is probably just left sitting in the L and R surrounds instead.

The most recent releases off the new scan and remaster for 3D and 4K, such as the 2017 UK 3D BD and slightly later 2017 US/UK 4K BD, appear to again use a discrete 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio version of the remix for some reason (not sure why when they could have either kept the 6.1 discrete or matrixed down to 5.1 as it was originally remixed, or even done a new 7.1 mix, but there you go).


DOLBY STEREO / DOLBY SURROUND MIXES (2.0 matrix)

There is both an original "2.0 Dolby Stereo" (4.0 matrixed to 2.0) and a remixed "2.0 Dolby Surround" (which I think might actually be 6.1 or 5.1 encoded to 2.0, depending on which Pro Logic version it is). The former was available on the old 1997 US DVD, the latter was on the 2008 JP BD (possibly others too, can't remember at this point). Of these, I only have whatever was included on the TeamBlu release, which having checked with my own ears turns out to be the remix. I'm guessing that this is off the 2008 JP BD and if Pro Logic IIx existed back then, I'd guess it's likely meant to be decoded back to 6.1 given that the remix was done in 7 channels to begin with.


TWO COMMENTARIES

I'm not sure what release these first appeared on, but they're referred to as "archival" commentaries on the first US BD from 2006 so presumably they were on an earlier DVD and/or LD. The first one is basically a collection of interviews with cast and crew (which may be the same as what I've seen on the back cover of one of the Special Edition LDs), and the second is a commentary by James Cameron and William Wisher. Both are Dolby Digital 2.0 in all BD releases they appear on, in straight stereo rather than flagged as matrixed / surround / Pro Logic / whatever you want to call it (though that doesn't necessarily mean they're not meant to be decoded that way, I suppose). EDIT: thanks to MrBrown, I think I now know where these first appeared on DVD, which I've added below.


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To summarise all that chronologically, here's what I think is available thus far, at least from DVD and BD (not going to complicate further with LD releases). I'm not currently listing any foreign language dubs for the time being to avoid making this any longer or more confusing but some of those are kinda interesting too (there's a German 7.1 mix, for example).

1997 US DVD (THX digital remaster of theatrical cut):

• Home version of original 5.1 Cinema Digital Surround mix as Dolby Digital 5.1
  
• Home version of original Dolby Stereo (2.0 matrix, intended to be decoded to 4.0) mix as Dolby Digital 2.0 (Pro Logic)
  

2000 US DVD ("Ultimate Edition" with all 3 cuts of the film):

• 6.1 remix as Dolby Digital 5.1 EX (can be decoded back to 6.1)
  
• 6.1 remix as DTS-ES Matrix 5.1 (can be decoded back to 6.1)
  
• Cast & crew commentary, Dolby Digital 2.0
  (I think this is possibly the first appearance of the cast & crew commentary on DVD but not necessarily ever because it's not marked as "NEW!" on the back of the box like other features, so I'm guessing that was possibly off some LaserDisc or another. MrBrown or someone else may correct me if I'm wrong!)
  

This also thanks to MrBrown's info, which I can now see on the back of the box... turns out this seems to be where the James Cameron / William Wisher commentary first appeared...

2003 US DVD (Extreme DVD MetalPak):

• 6.1 remix as Dolby Digital 5.1 EX (can be decoded back to 6.1)
  
• James Cameron / William Wishart commentary, Dolby Digital 2.0 (new for this release)
  

2003 JP DVD (theatrical cut):

• Home version of 5.1 CDS mix as DTS 5.1 @ 1509 kbps
  
• Home version of 5.1 CDS mix as Dolby Digital 5.1 @ 384 kbps
  

2006 US BD (theatrical cut):

• 6.1 remix as Dolby Digital 5.1 EX (can be decoded back to 6.1)
  
• 6.1 remix as DTS-ES Matrix 5.1 (can be decoded back to 6.1)
  
• "Archival" (LaserDisc?) cast & crew commentary, Dolby Digital 2.0
  
• "Archival" James Cameron / William Wishart commentary, Dolby Digital 2.0
  

2008 FR BD (Special Edition + theatrical cuts):
Disc 1 (Special Edition cut): Some version of remix, presumably same as 2008 UK BD 1-disc version of this release which has DTS-HD MA 5.1
Disc 2 (theatrical cut): Home version of 5.1 CDS mix with additional cleanup (partially to remove 16 kHz interference from studio monitor or similar) as DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1

2008 JP BD ("Premium Edition" with Special Edition + theatrical cuts):
Disc 1 (Special Edition cut):

• 6.1 remix as Dolby TrueHD 5.1 EX (so matrix encoded after all, intended to decode back to 6.1)
  
• 6.1 remix as Dolby Digital 2.0 matrix (I'm guessing this is intended to be decoded to 6.1 if it's Dolby Pro Logic IIx, but haven't checked yet)
  
• both commentaries
  

Disc 2 (theatrical cut):

• 6.1 remix as Dolby TrueHD 5.1 EX (so matrix encoded after all, intended to decode back to 6.1)
  
• 6.1 remix as Dolby Digital 2.0 matrix (I'm guessing this is intended to be decoded to 6.1 if it's Dolby Pro Logic IIx... not sure if it existed yet, but I think it might've)
  

2009 US BD ("Skynet Edition" with all 3 cuts via seamless branching):

• 6.1 remix as Dolby Digital 5.1 EX (can be decoded back to 6.1)
  
• 6.1 remix as DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 matrix (can be decoded back to 6.1)
  
• commentaries as on 2006 US BD
  

2009 UK BD ("Skynet Edition" with all 3 cuts via seamless branching):

• 6.1 remix as DTS-HD Master Audio 6.1 (discrete, it seems)
  
• same 2 commentaries again
  

2015 US BD (Lionsgate/StudioCanal barebones release but has little to no DNR):

• 6.1 remix as DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 (no mention of matrix, so possibly not explicitly flagged as such)
  

2017 2D/3D/4K restoration BDs:

• 6.1 remix as DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 (again, no mention of matrix, so may not be matrix encoded for the addition extrapolated Cs channel, although you could use the current gen Dolby Surround or DTS Neo:X decoders to try different things I suppose)
  

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I'm quite sure there's at least something I've got wrong in all that, but I hope I've got the gist for the most part.

Here are some things I'd like to confirm:

1. Is whatever source TeamBlu used (I think it might be the 2008 JP BD) already exactly frame-matched and in sync with the 2009 Skynet Editions? I can confirm whether it is now but that doesn't mean it was in the first place. I don't have the JP BD and it's now old and extortionate, even 2nd hand.
   
   
2. I was under the impression that DVDs and BDs up to and including the 2015 BD were from the same scan so would theoretically have the same missing frames and could be synchronised by just applying delays, but it seems like jonno (and whoever synced the DTS, maybe Chewtobacca?) have had to do a lot more than that in terms of knocking out audio frames to make it sync in certain places (in jonno's case, with the AC-3) or decoding to PCM then editing in the lossless realm (as with the DTS version). Is this due exclusively to missing frames at reel changes, or is there more to it than that?
   

Essentially, I'd like to either obtain or create syncs of pretty much every mix I just mentioned that can be used with as many releases as possible, which probably means the pre-2017 ones for the most part. It might be possible to sync stuff with the 2017 without it sounding too terrible / noticeable but since it has fewer (no?) missing frames than the theatrical audio sources, audio would presumably have to either be patched in from the remix off a 2017 disc, stretched, or left as a gap (which depending on where the missing frames lie in the earlier releases could all either work or not). The key thing there would be knowing where the frames are missing, which I can theoretically figure out by de-telecining the DVDs and comparing them frame by frame (particularly around reel changes) to the BDs, but I'm guessing that somebody may already have worked that out who may have notes they could share. If so, please do gimme a shout!

[Stamper]

You have four different masters to take into account for resyncs :

- LD + Early 1997 DVD the original T2 video master.

- Early Ultimate edition DVD from 2000 (might be in sync with the early master)

- X-treme up to 2015 BD they are all the same with just some differences in lead.

- Latest 3D degrain uprezzed master.

* In addition, there is a Gaumont France / Europe DVD master that is basically the LD master with a Tri-Star logo in the opening, only in Pal format.

[pipefan413]

You have four different masters to take into account for resyncs :

- LD + Early 1997 DVD the original T2 video master.

- Early Ultimate edition DVD from 2000 (might be in sync with the early master)

- X-treme up to 2015 BD they are all the same with just some differences in lead.

- Latest 3D degrain uprezzed master.

* In addition, there is a Gaumont France / Europe DVD master that is basically the LD master with a Tri-Star logo in the opening, only in Pal format.

This is extremely useful. Thank you.

Theoretically, if the Extreme DVD from 2003 is the same master as the 2003 Pioneer DVD (the Japanese one with the DTS track), that should mean that the DTS track from the 2003 JP DVD (the Pioneer one with the DTS 5.1 mix) should be possible to sync very easily indeed. I was under the impression more work might be needed because of differences in missing frames between the earlier versions, but perhaps that was only because the AC-3 version was off a 1997 disc (older master). This might be easier than I expected!

[zoidberg]

The US AC-3 LD has the TriStar logo

[captainsolo]

The 2.0 remix was first done for the SE on Laserdisc as far as I know. Did this track ever make it to DVD?

The Theatrical CAV box has 2.0 and I thought was the theatrical 2.0 but that's just a guess.

[Stamper]

No, the SE was just the theatrical audio, with the additional scenes newly mixed in.

On DVD after 2000, the SE became the remixed audio, with the additional scenes remixed too.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

The 2003 Extreme DVD also has a English Dolby Surround 2.0 track that is optimized for headphones, and is supposedly different than the 2.0 track (that Pipefan413 says is down-fold of the 5.1 EX mix on the JP Blu) on the 2000 Ultimate Edition DVD.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

* In addition, there is a Gaumont France / Europe DVD master that is basically the LD master with a Tri-Star logo in the opening, only in Pal format.

According to Rewind http://www.dvdcompare.net/comparisons/film.php?fid=160, there's early Australian and Brazilian DVDs put out by Sony that use the same Theatrical Cut LD master with the Tri-Star logo intact. The Brazilian DVD is said to be non-anamorphic and possibly a field blended PAL-NTSC conversion, which is odd. However, that's nowhere near as strange as Brazil using PAL-M (which is not the same as standard PAL, but basically the 525 line NTSC format with PALs 4.43361875 MHz color chroma) and having their media/video players accept NTSC content but convert their output a PAL-M 525 signal to a PAL-M TV.