Frankenstein (1931) Audio Preservation

[crissrudd4554]

I'll post something about this on CHFB just to see if anyone knows anything about it. The fact that you picked this up on four different dubs is enough to convince me that this should at least be discussed.

[jerryshadoe]

I saw your post over there and although I would like to hear what others have to say, I think it's a little premature until I have the track assembled. A finished product, in English, will be a lot more convincing than just reading about it

However, the sources I'm using are not some "secret private stash" and anyone can verify this. The European BD of Frankenstein contains the Italian and Spanish dub tracks. (also has French and German, but these do not contain any of the changes in question) A localized BD release in Portugal has the European Portuguese original dub and a localized BD release in Brazil has the Brazilian Portuguese redub. The dubs on the older DVD counterparts are the same as the BDs. (minus the censored material, of course) Only reason I'm using Italian from an R2 DVD is because it's before the horrible DNR, which was applied to all audio tracks on the BD releases (except the Spanish, which actually sounds better than the older DVD releases which I checked out) and sounds better.

These are not really hard to find and anyone could verify it themselves. Granted, some of it appears out-of sync on some transfers, but once realigned to sync with the English master (and some of the same identifying sound effects,) it's clear that it was made to match what's on screen. Furthermore, it doesn't sound like it was composed, recorded, added at a much later time, just for those dubs. And why would they all be using the same music stems?

Also, I have been trying to figure out exactly WHEN these foreign dubs were recorded, because that could help narrow down whether these were re-release additions or whether they were there in the original theatrical run... It's actually very hard to find exact information, when it comes to dates for most of the dubs, which really sucks... BUT, I have found a couple of pieces in foreign language forums here and there. From what I understand, the Spanish dubbed version was done for the original theatrical run in Spain, which was in March of 1932 - only three and a half months after the US premiere. This dub was supposedly (still looking for more than one source for this piece of info) also used when the film premiered in Uruguay and Mexico in June and July, respectively, of 1932. I haven't been able to find any info for when the Italian dub was made, but judging by the sound of it, I would have to say that it was probably done in the late 50s because it has a very similar fidelity to the German audio track (which on the German wikipedia clearly states was dubbed in 1957) and in EVERY version of the Italian audio (including the BD) there is one instance, where a line of dialog is clearly from the German dub (I have lined them up to find the same waveform, even - LOL) Can't find anything about a date for the French dub. I haven't been able to find an exact date for the original European Portuguese dub (although I have read in many Brazilian forums that it was supposedly released this way for the first run which was in early 1933) but I do know that the Brazilian redub was done in 1967.

So, IF those music elements did belong there original, the stems were still available as late as 1967 and it's possible that they belong there in the original run, with how close the Spanish dub was released after the US run and they might have been using the "original" stems there. The more I think about it, the more it doesn't make sense...

Think this post is long enough (LMAO) and now for some "therapy," because it's time to go back to work on this. The quicker I get done, the quicker others can have a listen and then we can have a real conversation about thisuperman:

[SilverWook]

I'm curious, was there a technological leap that made it more practical to dub Frankenstein as opposed to shooting a Spanish version, as was done with Dracula?

[jerryshadoe]

That's a good question, one that I haven't found an answer for yet. What is interesting though, is that apparently there was a French made Frankenstein in 1931 and a sequel BRIDE in 1935, using different cast and so on (like the Spanish version of Dracula)

EDIT: Also, in every Spanish dub I have seen, the intro by Van Sloan, is NOT dubbed (all versions have it in English) which would imply that the music maybe was suppose to be there due to no intro and the close release date to the US run...

[crissrudd4554]

Well I only posted on that site to see if there was any other information on that piece of music. Whether to ask before or after this project is complete doesnt really matter. You said yourself you couldnt find any other additional information on that piece of music and Ive never heard of it. So I felt it was something to ask about especially when trying to figure out if it was in the original English track. Youve pretty much confirmed that most of the work youve done up to this point has required a lot of guess work and I was hoping perhaps this could confirm or debunk some of that guess work so at least we know where everything goes or doesnt go. You even acknowledged that even we are eventually able to reference those old sound discs what if theat music or sound effects arent there? Should we assume they were never there or just lost due to degradation. And yes I know youre not referencing from a 'secret stash' of dubs haha. I figured theres gotta be at least a few people on that site who have access to some of these dubs, at least the French track on the BD anyways, so perhaps they could shine a light on that piece of music or maybe even the sound effects. And good question about an alternate language remake of Frankenstein. Likely it would have been lost had they shot one since most alternate language films were lost over the years.

[jerryshadoe]

I agree with you, but I still think it would be easier to demonstrate the point with at least a sample clip, (although I just want to have the entire track completed because it will make it easy for everyone to "be on the same page") versus just "telling people about it." Furthermore, it's not just one piece of music during the scene with Maria.

The first "missing" music cue is in the beginning of film at around 6min 37sec, when Frankenstein is telling Fritz that "...the neck is broken..." and the scene fades to black and then to the classroom where the music cue stops right as we see the feet of the corpse being covered with the white sheet at 6min 53sec.

The next music cue starts right before the 31st minute (when we first see the monster) and lasts until about 35min 30sec.

Then, again, around 37min 30 sec (when the struggle between the monster and Frankenstein and Dr Waldman occurs) and it lasts until about 38min 10 sec, once the Monster is down and we hear knocking on the door.

Then, at about 43min 10 sec (just as the shot changes to where you can see Dr Waldman trying to listen to the Monster's chest and we see the monster raise his arm) there is another music cue that lasts until 43min 30sec when we see the monster going down the stairs.

Next, at about 47min 55sec (just as the shot changes from the crowd of people partying in town to the shot of the monster approaching Maria's house) there is another music cue (this one for the entire scene) that lasts until 50min 47sec, when the shot changes from the monster running away from the lake and back to the crowd of people partying in the town. (this one is interesting because only on the Italian dub, there is an obvious "jump-cut" in the music, where the shot of the monster throwing Maria into the lake was restored - what the hell did they use to restore that bit, that matches the other three dubs which don't have an obvious cut for that section and the Spanish version even contains that restored shot in English with the same music playing, although there is a change in fidelity of the music just for the English bit, not obvious but I noticed it)

Then, at 53min 34sec, just as Henry walks into the room where Frankenstein and Elizabeth are talking, there is another music cue. This one lasts until about 55min 12sec, when we hear Elizabeth scream and see Frankenstein yell "Elizabeth!" in the hallway. This cue continues at 55min 22sec, when the shot goes back to Elizabeth's room and we see the monster outside of the window. This lasts until about 55min 41 sec when we see Frankenstein holding Elizabeth's head, right before the shot change to the crowd in town.

Then, about 1h 2min 47sec, when we first see the monster on the hill next to Frankenstein before he grabs him, there is another music cue, that lasts until 1h 3min 30sec, until the shot where we see the monster pick Frankenstein up after the shot of Frankenstein's bloody mouth.

And the last music cue is at 1h 8min 46sec, just as Baron Frankenstein is closing the door, a little "outro" melody is played until scene fades to black (right before credits start) at 1h 9min 7sec.

The last one, because of the dialog during most of it by the Baron, is going to be a royal pain to try to reinsert and might be the only one that I won't be able to include. Granted, all four dubs have dialog spoken at slightly different times and the music doesn't always play in same sync (due to extra/missing frames due to different masters) so I can restore the music cues for all of the rest of the film (although it's not necessarily easy, but it looks like I have enough overlapping material to "Frankenstein it" together) but that last cue I'm not positive about.

The French and German dubs do NOT contain these "extra" music cues or the "extra" sound effects with exception of couple sound effects that are there in entirety versus partial, like some of them on the English track. In fact, those two are missing more stuff (for the most part) due to the way they were dubbed. It's only the Italian, Spanish, European and Brazilian Portuguese dubs that contain this. I have also checked the Turkish dub, which is a roughly done dub that uses the old, censored English master (same as on LD) and, therefore, has no differences.

Still, the dubs that do contain these cues are intriguing, especially when you add up the actual runtime of the music (roughly about ELEVEN and a HALF MINUTES[!])

When it comes to the French language Frankenstein and Bride that I mentioned, I wasn't talking about just a dub, but two movies that were actually shot concurrently with the English version, but with different cast, director, etc., just like the Spanish language version of Dracula had been made with a different cast, director, etc.

[crissrudd4554]

I know you were referring to that and thats what I meant when I said alternate language 'remake' meaning shot with a cast that spoke a different language but uses the same sets and shot congruently with the English film. But as I said most of these alternate language films are lost with the Spanish Dracula being the only real exception. Also from what I know that movie was in public domain when Universal finally got their hands on it decades later. This is why certain things were added when it was released to home video because Universal were trying to recopyright it (they can do this for a foreign film but not their classic silent films???). This is why we hear a low orchestral bit when Dracula leaves his coffin (same bit played at the end of the Opera sequence in the English film) and a 1992 copyright tag was added at the films start. However, beginning with the 2006 DVD the soundtrack has essentially been restored to its original form while the 1992 copyright tag remains.

[jerryshadoe]

The music cues might, indeed, be guess work, but most of the missing sound effects that I can identify visually onscreen and compare to what is actually on the English track... well, that part is easy. I noticed on that other forum you mentioned, that someone said that the levels on the LD might have been tinkered with to begin with and, unfortunately, I would tend to agree. Some of the sound effects were clearly amplified for no real reason (some to the point of rather large amount of distortion) where those same sound effects are still at their original levels on some or all of the dubs. And, I see evidence of other tinkering too, some of it doesn't make any sense either... There are rough splices here and there, that don't correspond to an entire shot, where it's obvious something was inserted later as it has a different fidelity and usually doesn't actually match what's on-screen.

It's rather funny, because I noticed a lot of subtle things throughout the film, where it appears like the audio matches and syncs with what's onscreen UNTIL you actually hear what's suppose to be there. This project has permanently RUINED the English audio track for me as it's available officially on any commercial transfer.

[crissrudd4554]

This is what he said.

"It's late here so I went back with headphones which was quite a revelation in the end. The reverb is gone from the growls but I'm not entirely convinced it was meat to be there in the first place. Hear me out.

I've worked with digital audio for the past 17 years or so and one thing I can unequivocally say is that noise reduction techniques have improved astoundingly from the late '90s. What a close headphone inspection revealed was all manner of light aliasing and squelchy lack of definition. Reverbish effects like that are not uncommon and just listening to the footsteps of the two coming down the stairs, the new mix has punch and depth to the steps whereas the '99 mix has no bite or attack to the sounds at all. It's like you're catching the sound of a step just after it first landed. They overdid it trying to remove the hiss, thereby removing elements of the actual sound as well. I also noticed a big stuttering glitch when Elizabeth says 'Don't Leave Me' when they're being told of Waldman's death. There's also a fair amount of distortion on the '99 mix which they've managed to clean up very tastefully now. Overall, I'd say the new mix is far superior.

That's not to say the reverb definitely shouldn't be there, I just have my doubts about it. Listening to it also enhances my doubts about the additional Henry's etc. Overall, the work done on the '99 mix sounds quite heavy-handed and if they didn't QC the glitch, who knows what else may not be intentional."

And I mentioned before perhaps he has a point. Again Im no sound expert. All my views that I have expressed in regards to the audio are strictly based on feel and quality. And unless someone proves it otherwise (at the rate youre going jerry you probably will) Im for the moment convinced the missing bits I initially mentioned should be in the mix. Another user on CHFB at one point said something like he can tell the audio was handled by people who 'wanted to get it just right'. Again I cannot bring myself to say that. You and me have both expressed how overly DNR'd the BD track is that at this point Im amazed no one has ran to Universals restoration dept. and yelled a big fat 'Umm Hell-OOOOO!!!!'. Just the other day I was watching the BD version and was amazed at something that it immediately made me pop in my DVD-R of my VHS. In the scene where Henry and Fritz dig up the coffin, they walk over to the burial site, toss their shovels aside and pull off their coats. Just as they pick up their shovels again theres a 'bang' that goes off in the background. It stunned me how punchier this noise was on my VHS version.

[jerryshadoe]

Yeah, I saw that comment and I agree and disagree with what the guy says. He's kinda contradicting himself, but not... it's hard to explain and I see where he was coming from. What worries me is his comment about the new mix being "superior." One the one hand, I can see this point of view. The levels throughout the entire film are a lot more balanced now, a lot of the background hiss is gone. (the "punchier" noise you mentioned on the VHS, which is also on the LD, is actually one of those examples of the mix being tweaked and something that DID get corrected on the BD, which I can prove with FOUR different dubs, all matching the level used for the BD but NOT the LD/VHS, LOL - wow, they got one thing right) BUT, ALL of this was done at the EXPENSE of fidelity, dynamic range and ambiance and IMHO it is a trade-off that is not worth it. I would take a noisy track that contains all of the audio that is intended to be there, over a scrubbed "clean" version any day.

When it comes to proving, once and for all, that the LD audio is FAR SUPERIOR to the BD audio - here is a spectral analysis comparing the two...

English BD audio track:

[Image: rbLRYRr.png]

English LD audio track:

[Image: zGcKue5.png]


Notice the extremely weird filtering that they did on the BD around 3kHz (also, right around the 1kHz mark, but that one stands out less) and the fact that the LD overall has a lot fuller dynamic range

(you are welcome to repost those anywhere, when making the argument for the BD audio being inferior)