[Proposal] Nightbreed (1990) [Project: Celluloid]

[zoidberg]

Okay so the Dirt in The Gate 35mm screening was a blast. Nicholas Vince was a special guest there was a Q&A before the screening and he had a table set up for signatures (I forgot to take my laserdisc or blu unfortunately).

The print was flown over from the U.S. as no print exists in the U.K. anymore. There was plenty of signs of wear and tear but thankfully the print was complete. The grain as nice and fine and the sound was belting. The projection booth was off limits to anyone but the projectionist but you could see the twin projectors through the port.

The biggest surprise to my eyes was just how warm (ie golden/amber) the majority of the film was. In that respect it reminded me a lot of the 35mm Predator I saw at the PCC. Very rich orange skintones for the most part with the exception of some night scenes where skintones turn pink. There was what I call 'photochemical blue' where you would have licks or patches of sometimes quite saturated blue/cyan within a shot but not at the expense of other colours (unlike digital which tends to blanket a shot). There was the odd bit of teal which usually came from an indirect flourescent tube, scenes lit completely with tubes (like the morgue) read as pale blue. As is usually the case with 35mm the colour was very rich, which has the effect of making transfers like IP scans look undersaturated and pale in comparison. 

Anyway to answer your specific questions Lucas:

The opening dream sequence is not bathed in blue, blue is there in varying intensities/tones varying from shot to shot
The first Decker murder scene, surprisingly warm in the well (artificial) lit areas but with deep blues in the shadows
Daylight scenes: Mostly warm with 'magic hour' gold/amber tones
Midian: Below ground, mostly yellow/orange, getting redder during the destruction. When Decker is pursuing Lori above, the chase itself is warm while the scene below with Boone fighting to go help her is bluer with blue pouring in from the window. The Baphomet scenes have a purple look to them, as does the room full of skulls and the final scenes in the barn (plus the final scene with Ashberry)

If you have any other questions now's the time while it's fresh in my mind. I may be able to do a few renderings of how the 35mm looked.

In other news the same group is holding a 35mm Grindhouse festival this september and they are showing amongst others Army of Darkness, Razorback, The Hidden and... Suspiria

[Turisu]

Other than the expected differences (i.e. lower contrast and saturation), how does the current BD stack up in terms of colour accuracy to the print?

[LucasGodzilla]

How fascinating. My expectations have certainly been subverted. This does make me wonder now if I've been giving the BD a harder time than I should be judging from your comments on the warmer color scheme. Though with that said, I imagine the BD still looks off from what I can garner in your personal account.

The first Decker murder scene, surprisingly warm in the well (artificial) lit areas but with deep blues in the shadows

Look at these screencaps. I'm fairly certain it didn't look as bright in the print. In the first one, the background definitely looks wrong since the blues from the windows are very faint and barely visible on the fridge. Similarly, in the second cap, it feels like the window lighting is meant to stand out more (such as on the door) and be more shadowy as a whole which would give Decker an eerier silhouetted look where you can't make out any details. But I feel like the biggest tell-tale sign is the last two where Decker actually flicks off a light, but it barely changes anything.

There was the odd bit of teal which usually came from an indirect flourescent tube, scenes lit completely with tubes (like the morgue) read as pale blue.

Not sure if this is accurate since there are pale blues but I have a feeling what you saw may have been a different shade and more akin to something like this?

(Note this is complete guesswork)

When Decker is pursuing Lori above, the chase itself is warm while the scene below with Boone fighting to go help her is bluer with blue pouring in from the window. The Baphomet scenes have a purple look to them, as does the room full of skulls and the final scenes in the barn (plus the final scene with Ashberry)

I had a feeling that fight scene with Boone underground had blues in it. It was something I took notice when I saw some of the caps from the VHS segments in the Cabal Cut as I brought up previously. I did some testing a while back to recreate this with some mixed results. I'll just show you the bits that look okay but are probably still off. I also did the same for Baphomet's chamber going off of intuition (course, hearing that it's actually purple sort of cans that attempt).

So honestly, I don't know how to approach this project now. Perhaps an attempt at regrading the BD to look more akin to a general 90's 35mm print and adjusting the curve to compress the highlights and color match to certain VHS segments if possible?

[zoidberg]

Other than the expected differences (i.e. lower contrast and saturation), how does the current BD stack up in terms of colour accuracy to the print?

Pretty much as I described in my post. The blu isn't miles off but it's a straightforward IP scan with basic colour correction, so a lot of the intended shifts have been dialled out.

Lucas:

Regarding brightness, it's always tricky to judge as 35mm projection isn't the brightest and your eyes adjust to the darkness of the theatre. The darkest scenes were some of the underground shots in Midian, but even then you could make stuff out. During the murder of the family, all of the shots you referenced while not mega bright were definitely not dark. Even on 35mm when Decker switches off the light before killing the father it has only a small effect to the right of screen. The shot by the fridge is so quick it's impossible to comment, but the light through the doors in the second shot was more saturated. In fact most of the blue in the shadows was very saturated and rich with that magical tone of blue that 35mm does so effortlessly.

[zoidberg]

Has anyone else picked up the Arrow release? Flicking through the Theatrical Cut it seems to be a different master to the one used by Shout. AFAICT the Director's Cut is identical.

[LucasGodzilla]

Has anyone else picked up the Arrow release? Flicking through the Theatrical Cut it seems to be a different master to the one used by Shout. AFAICT the Director's Cut is identical.

No, I didn't see any point since it was said to have been the same as Shout's masters (although I am curious now that you said it looks different; I'm curious in what way) and it didn't include that extended Cabal cut that was teased on Twitter before just phasing out of existence.

[zoidberg]

As a general rule Arrow's encodes are better than Shout, plus well I just love Nightbreed. Don't know what the deal is with The Cabal Cut, there was the extremely limited release by Seraphim (which was for sale at the 35mm screening I attended) but not heard anything else.

I might be wrong but the Arrow TC just seems to be a different vintage. Everyone else is saying the masters are the same for the 2 releases (O-neg for Director's, IP for Theatrical)

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Odd that the TC on Arrow's BD is said a different source than the one on the Scream Factory LE. Does it had the 20th Century Fox logo at the start? That would be the easiest way to tell as Scream's BD doesn't have it but a streaming print somewhere did SF's source for the TC was an IP from Warner Bros, but if Arrow's is indeed totally different I wonder if it's a UK or foreign release print, or that streaming print with the Fox logo that was on some site a while back?

[jonno]

Arrow's own booklet states that the HD masters came from Shout Factory - it's indeed likely that their own superior encoding is responsible for any difference in look.

Neither cut starts with a Fox logo (though the included trailers do) - just Morgan Creek.

[pipefan413]

Might there be any point in preserving LaserDisc NIGHTBREED? It's available, but I'm not actually that familiar with the film. I own the Arrow release but haven't gotten round to watching it yet; if it's already pretty great (particularly in audio terms) then there may not necessarily be much point.