[versions] Last Of The Mohicans — Existing Masters?

[LucasGodzilla]

So last night I was thinking about a theoretical project idea involving Michael Mann's Last Of The Mohicans and I was trying to tally up in my head exactly how many different documented cuts are there to the movie out there?

As far as I'm aware of, people generally seem to agree with the main consensus of there being at least three primary cuts: Theatrical (French / ViaVision BD), Expanded (1999 DVD) & Definitive (Any current BD).

However, I randomly stumbled across a YouTube channel by an Eduardo Martín that managed to somehow document the existence of an International cut as well as the possibility of another home media cut exclusive to LD (though from what I've seen of the videos regarding this specifically, the changes seemed to be a result of either a wonky LD capture or differing hard-subs).

I did want to post all the videos he made though because I wanted to inquire if anyone has any further details regarding this situation, or if anyone here has these SD rips—or are in possession of these releases that could be possibly ripped.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL75Nd...2wZPt_opDJ

I also wanted to take this opportunity to inquire about the audio situation. Given the only project that seems to exist is Jerryshadoe's reconstruction of the Theatrical cut before it got released in HD officially—which used audio sourced from DVDs and up, as far as I'm aware of, there aren't any LD audio captures or the likes?

I don't suppose anyone has any idea if the THX LD (presuming it is the Theatrical cut and not its own thing) is stemming from the 70mm Dolby 6-Track mix—given that's usually the case with the lossy AC3 track included on THX LDs?

For the release of “The Last of the Mohicans,” Fox employed the services of Lucasfilm’s Theatre Alignment Program (TAP) to evaluate and approve the cinemas selected to book a 70mm print.

The 70mm prints of “The Last of the Mohicans” featured full-frame imagery blown up from anamorphic 35mm and Six-Track Dolby Stereo (SR-encoded Baby Boom format).

I seem to recall reading before that the LD mix did differ from the ones included on releases since then—described as it being bassier and more powerful than the newer 5.1 remixes—but I haven't got a clue if this is another one of several cases where it's just the AC3 encoding itself than the mix itself.

[PDB]

I remember that video being brought up on the OT after Jerry's project was completed. Sort of a challenge to his project being the US theatrical cut. To defend Jerry's work he did all the work with the available materials and like you said LG that video is not totally conclusive. Some of those extra seconds on footage could be speed conversion issues but I wouldn't put it past Mann to of altered the movie right out of the theaters but before it was released on LD. Ultimately, no one knew what the real answers were so it kind of was dropped.

I still watched Jerry's project preferring it to the recut BD(s) until the TC BDs came out. Of course, that is me assuming the new TC BDs are the same video as the Jerrys/HDTV/R4 theatrical cuts. Don't think I ever checked.

Regardless, good luck on your project LG, I'd love to see anything LOTM. Kind of tired of Mann's tinkering...

[The Aluminum Falcon]

Look forward to your findings @LucasGodzilla ! The movie sits sealed on my shelf, and I haven't seen it yet. Curious to see what you find before cracking open a release.

Was Jerry's project completely superseded by the official theatrical release or is there any reason to grab it while still available on the usual sites?

[LucasGodzilla]

I remember that video being brought up on the OT after Jerry's project was completed. Sort of a challenge to his project being the US theatrical cut. To defend Jerry's work he did all the work with the available materials and like you said LG that video is not totally conclusive. Some of those extra seconds on footage could be speed conversion issues but I wouldn't put it past Mann to of altered the movie right out of the theaters but before it was released on LD. Ultimately, no one knew what the real answers were so it kind of was dropped.

I still watched Jerry's project preferring it to the recut BD(s) until the TC BDs came out. Of course, that is me assuming the new TC BDs are the same video as the Jerrys/HDTV/R4 theatrical cuts. Don't think I ever checked.

Regardless, good luck on your project LG, I'd love to see anything LOTM. Kind of tired of Mann's tinkering...

From what I saw of that video in particular, I do think the cuts are supposed to be the same but it was just some weirdness with that particular disc or capture. So if I had to make a bet, I'd imagine the Theatrical cut that we all know of has been left alone as is on LD and the HDTV / R4 given the Director cuts were given a proper spotlight (and though Mann is a heavy tinkerer, usually he tends to disclose major changes).


Would be nice to see if proper LD caps of these particular releases can be done but that's so many LDs that I don't think anyone in these circles own from the starting gate.

Granted, these are a lot cheaper than other movies I've seen on eBay, so it is a possible investment to make if I can figure out who'd be the best person to send them all to—especially the THX LD for a proper rip of the AC3 5.1 track.


If I do end up doing a project, I would probably also consider picking up a 35mm trailer print of the movie to create a photochemically-based blanket LUT of the Definitive cut while I'm at is since everyone complains about that master's timing being total garbo—though it's far more detailed than the other HD master.

I do want to ask though if anyone has any idea what their thoughts on that color timing situation? If I had to personally guess, I wouldn't be surprised the movie looked not super far off from that to some degree given Heat was very yellow on 35mm and I can imagine a print being timed very dark to push for the naturalistic look in regards to overall lighting (not to mention trying to inch out as much dynamic range out of the horizons on a release print), but that's just me purely guessing.

Still doesn't change the fact that even if it's an attempted recreation at photochemical timing—supposing the guess is remotely accurate—the master as a whole is just too dark to really look natural unless you're watching at night or in a pitch-black room (which to be fair is a theatrical setting, though I don't think anyone wants that sort of darkness out of a normal BD).

Look forward to your findings @LucasGodzilla ! The movie sits sealed on my shelf, and I haven't seen it yet. Curious to see what you find before cracking open a release.

Was Jerry's project completely superseded by the official theatrical release or is there any reason to grab it while still available on the usual sites?

As far as I'm aware, from an encoding perspective, it'd probably be better to pick up an actual BD that has the master, but I do think the project is probably worth checking out for the number of alternate tracks included.

[zoidberg]

Interesting idea for a project Lucas, although I think you would somehow have to win the lottery so to speak by getting a trailer which had the theatrical timing (most do not), getting a scan which captured those colours exactly and then being able to create a LUT which applied to the whole movie.

I dare say that the original timing is hidden away in the theatrical master seeing as it's an IP scan, it may be more fruitful to work with that master initially before tackling a regrade of the newer scan, if that's what you're aiming for.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for the AC-3 laserdisc in case it comes up cheap

[PDB]

Would be nice to see if proper LD caps of these particular releases can be done but that's so many LDs that I don't think anyone in these circles own from the starting gate.

Granted, these are a lot cheaper than other movies I've seen on eBay, so it is a possible investment to make if I can figure out who'd be the best person to send them all to—especially the THX LD for a proper rip of the AC3 5.1 track.

If I do end up doing a project, I would probably also consider picking up a 35mm trailer print of the movie to create a photochemically-based blanket LUT of the Definitive cut while I'm at is since everyone complains about that master's timing being total garbo—though it's far more detailed than the other HD master.

I do want to ask though if anyone has any idea what their thoughts on that color timing situation? If I had to personally guess, I wouldn't be surprised the movie looked not super far off from that to some degree given Heat was very yellow on 35mm and I can imagine a print being timed very dark to push for the naturalistic look in regards to overall lighting (not to mention trying to inch out as much dynamic range out of the horizons on a release print), but that's just me purely guessing.

Still doesn't change the fact that even if it's an attempted recreation at photochemical timing—supposing the guess is remotely accurate—the master as a whole is just too dark to really look natural unless you're watching at night or in a pitch-black room (which to be fair is a theatrical setting, though I don't think anyone wants that sort of darkness out of a normal BD).

Sounds like the beginnings of a great project. Hope you can get the needed parts together.

I agree with Zoidberg that trailers having the same color timing as the final prints is hit or miss. From personal experience it seems the closer a trailer is issued to the release date of the film the more likely it is too have similar color timing. But of course I've also seen trailers that look dissimilar to the final form. YMMV

Having said that I still don't think its a bad idea to at least entertain that route if you can find a 35mm trailer. Can't hurt to see what's offered and Mann is a control freak and might of taken interest in how the trailers looked.

Otherwise that yellow tint kind of does feel "right" for LOTM given the situation and location of the story. The yellow at least seems consistent in Mann's supervised versions.

[borisanddoris]

I have the AC3 LOTM LaserDisc sitting on my shelf. I can't capture video, but I might be able to get the audio capture setup again. It is currently decommissioned.

[BDgeek]

Hi LG!

Defenitely one of my favorite movies!

I have the australian "supposedly" TC release. The 2.0 PCM track is outstanding and probably very close to the LD one. I think it's the best 2.0 track I've ever listened to on a BD release. The 5.1 is very weak and pales in comparison to it.
I've been meaning to get some LD releases for it, but I've prioritized other movies that already got great looking 4k releases for now.

Let me know if you have any interest on this australian release.

[LucasGodzilla]

Interesting idea for a project Lucas, although I think you would somehow have to win the lottery so to speak by getting a trailer which had the theatrical timing (most do not), getting a scan which captured those colours exactly and then being able to create a LUT which applied to the whole movie.

I dare say that the original timing is hidden away in the theatrical master seeing as it's an IP scan, it may be more fruitful to work with that master initially before tackling a regrade of the newer scan, if that's what you're aiming for.

Sounds like the beginnings of a great project. Hope you can get the needed parts together.

I agree with Zoidberg that trailers having the same color timing as the final prints is hit or miss. From personal experience it seems the closer a trailer is issued to the release date of the film the more likely it is too have similar color timing. But of course I've also seen trailers that look dissimilar to the final form. YMMV

Having said that I still don't think its a bad idea to at least entertain that route if you can find a 35mm trailer. Can't hurt to see what's offered and Mann is a control freak and might of taken interest in how the trailers looked.

Otherwise that yellow tint kind of does feel "right" for LOTM given the situation and location of the story. The yellow at least seems consistent in Mann's supervised versions.

I agree with the statements that a trailer would not contain the original theatrical color timing on any sort of exact basis. I would jokingly argue my ill-fated Nightbreed project was a testament to that problem.

However, what I do know that a 35mm trailer print would yield, is how movie footage would've looked having gone through a photochemical workflow on a print stock roughly at the time in general. I also can at least confirm that trailers for other Michael Mann titles—like Heat and Manhunter—did have a sort of ballparked photochemical timing situation that does at least somewhat match up to their theatrical print. Regardless, my intentions aren't to match it 1:1 per-say...

If I were to do a project, I don't want to enter the territories of having to make the judgement call of whether or not the color timing situation of the Definitive cut's a case like the Heat remaster where it was intentionally revisionist or the Thief remaster which was actually reference-print faithful but people called it out falsely as revisionism.

The posts I have read from those who saw it on 35mm generally say the movie doesn't look like the extremes of the Definitive cut. That said, I've also read that neither the HD master of the Theatrical cut (not that I trust it anyways because it gives me a lot of the same vibes as a lot of other masters that completely wiped the color timing on some telecining stage—regardless of what element it's stemming from) or older SD releases had the correct look either. If I had to guess, it would be that it'd be a hybrid of sorts, where the Definitive has the closer contrast but the Theatrical has the closer color tints.

So with all that in mind, I much rather hedge my bets on the trailer to create a loose handling of colors and contrast and then blanket-apply it over the Definitive master, retaining Mann's shot-by-shot grading but giving it a bit of a stronger filmic look that'll hopefully be a best of both worlds—in theory if Dr. Dre's color matcher does a good job blending up all the shots; Retain some of the general hues but in a less garrish / more naturalistic form (less extreme blanket yellows for instance which may translate to just general warmth or just plain neutral).

I want to look at it as a fair shake at being able to keep the modern director-approved grading—whatever nature it has—with a generally more photochemical appearance. I feel this is the fairest solution given it'd both allow me to keep the Definitive master as the main one to work off of and to be able to keep in mind that the project I have in mind would not be inherently faithful to the Theatrical cut only.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for the AC-3 laserdisc in case it comes up cheap

I have the AC3 LOTM LaserDisc sitting on my shelf.  I can't capture video, but I might be able to get the audio capture setup again.  It is currently decommissioned.

I'd certainly greatly appreciate it if anyone can get their hands on an LD of some form for ripping at some point in time. I admit it'd be ideal if video can also get capped to have an easier time double-checking if the frames match up with the other masters, but I'll take what I can get at the current moment.

Hi LG!

Defenitely one of my favorite movies!

I have the australian "supposedly" TC release. The 2.0 PCM track is outstanding and probably very close to the LD one. I think it's the best 2.0 track I've ever listened to on a BD release. The 5.1 is very weak and pales in comparison to it.
I've been meaning to get some LD releases for it, but I've prioritized other movies that already got great looking 4k releases for now.

Let me know if you have any interest on this australian release.

Interesting, it certainly wouldn't be the most outlandish possibility given it could also be a case where ViaVision's using what they can get their hands on in regards to Mann releases—as proven with their DVD of The Keep—so it is possible that the 5.1 and 2.0 tracks originated from different sources, though who knows really.

I do wonder how the tracks compare against the LD and HDTV counterparts if all these releases can be compiled (this would be a good opportunity to give the upcoming HVDB a proper test case lmao).

[zoidberg]

I would say that any references to 'graded to answer prints' or 'Director approved' have to be taken with a considerable pinch of salt these days.

Anecdotally I have heard that Thief did indeed have a cold blue look on 35mm, I just think that the DC grade is incredibly heavy handed (as are a number of Criterion's own colour graded releases), and digital grades just don't behave the same way as photochemical grades with regards to secondary colours/tones etc.