(2015-05-16, 05:19 PM)spoRv Wrote: The available HDTV versions found on the wild are both 1080i and 720p; the former, at 25fps, needs not to be IVTC'd so it could be *considered* 1080p; both are open matte, losing some details on the sides, while gaining more on top and bottom.

As I said before, there is japanese WOWOW capture in OAR floating around, but it has burned in subtitles.

Oops...

Guess it's time to revive bendermac's dated request for an authentic mix as I'm currently sitting there with two HD versions of Panic Room (some obscure web-dl in cinemascope and an Amazon open matte one), intending to sync that to the "least fiddled around with" original 5.1 mix.

The usual "decentralized backups" come along with a bunch of tracks, sometimes AC3, sometimes E-AC3 whereas the latter ones suggests some streaming web source as since the death of HD-DVD, E-AC3 is pretty rare on any physical media these days.

Independently of the concrete format which is secondary, the mixes are clearly different as some analysis of for example the respective center channel shows (decoded with eac3to, libav codec, hence dialog normalization removal and no DRC of course):



The one in the middle for instance is taken from some "DVD rip" coming in AC3 shape and in sync with a "25p" picture, so it could originate from a PAL DVD which is also supported by the fact that the nominal bitrate is 448 kbps which is at least possible on DVD. Since the quiet sections have a lower level and the peaks a higher one compared to the others first, by definition, the (macro) dynamic range is significantly higher. I guess at least the 3rd 1st one went through some "dynamic range reduction", just as the track which comes along with the Amazon open matte version of "Inside Man" by the way.

Update and correction: I'm sorry, my mistake/confusion - actually, only the first track significantly differs, track 2 and 3 look and sound pretty much the same once normalized to the same level, so maybe number 3 is actually sourced from a NTSC DVD (it comes along in AC3 @ 384 kbps). This would match the review which was referenced here as the overall mix level about 4.5dB lower (which of course can easily solved by using the volume (actually gain) control during playback.

I assume that they used the same source for the PAL and NTSC DVDs then, the major difference being that the PAL DVD runs faster with pitch correction (so bringing that one back to 24/1.001fps by eac3to sounds deeper than all the others).

As far as I can tell on a quick check, the pitch of the 25p AC3 equals the 23.976 fps AC3s, probably, the pitch has been adjusted to match the NTSC speed on that particular DVD so technically, it's already a "mangled around with" case although the loss most likely will be minor apart from the wrong effective speed of course.

The other tracks which come along with those HD versions are encoded at 640 kbps, a bitrate, no official DVD source offered, so it's most probably some reencode here.

Taking the principle problem of knowing which one is "toned down" and which one "beefed up" aside, what would still be nice for comparison is - if not the "holy grail" - the Cinema DTS - then at least some unaltered AC3 and/or DTS track from a (US) NTSC DVD.

I have the PAL English dts 5.1 audio track @ 768 kbps. I also have the French PAL collector 3 DVD set with French and English AC3 5.1 @ 448 + 3 audio commentaries. I synced all that to the 1080p scope WEBRiP release that I sped up to 25fps to keep the audio tracks untouched. I also have an open-matte WEB-DL with higher bitrate than the scope WEBRiP, with E-AC3 5.1 @ 640 kbps.

Ive got the Superbit R1 DVD somewhere.
It has a DTS and DD option on it.
Ill try and dig it out when I have a moment.

EDIT:
Here is a review of the disc https://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/4575/pan...-superbit/
The reviewer talks about the center being to low in the mix!

Ah yeah, so the 448 kbps AC3 might indeed be the unaltered track from the PAL DVD then. I could post the CRC hash of what I got for comparison but depending on the exact demuxing, it might be different due to a frame missing or zeroes padded alone, making it difficult.

If nothing "better" comes up, I'd also do it your way and reflag the video to be 25fps instead of stretching the audio around again.

The 640 kbps E-AC3 will most likely match the first waveform in my screenshot. Dynamic-range wise it seems to be between the supposedly PAL DVD AC3 and some DRCed mix of so far even less known origin.

Another thing is the swapped rear channels as stated at least for some German DVD release. The entry unfortunately doesn't enlighten the precious prospective buyer though which audio track shall be affected by that mastering error so I'll better compare the rear channels myself as well.

(2020-04-15, 11:46 PM)CSchmidlapp Wrote: Ive got the Superbit R1 DVD somewhere.
It has a DTS and DD option on it.

Yes! It would be gorgeous if you could share both the AC3 and DTS tracks.

(2020-04-15, 11:46 PM)CSchmidlapp Wrote: The reviewer talks about the center being to low in the mix!

Hmm, interesting reference. Well, with those reviews, it's often difficult to say as besides being highly subjective and a matter of taste, some essentially complain about what in fact is a high dynamic range (which I personally like). On the contrary, some movies which are praised these days for their great audio such as "Blade Runner 2049", "Tron Legacy", "Interstellar" or "Pacific Rim", actually contain tons of clipped samples with full throttle on all channels right from the start.

So is it too hopeful to think that there is a cinema DTS disc out there somewhere?

(2020-04-15, 11:46 PM)CSchmidlapp Wrote: Ive got the Superbit R1 DVD somewhere.
It has a DTS and DD option on it.
Ill try and dig it out when I have a moment.

EDIT:
Here is a review of the disc https://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/4575/pan...-superbit/
The reviewer talks about the center being to low in the mix!

So thanks to CSchmidlapp, I was able to verify the AC3 and DTS tracks of the Superbit R1 DVD and they look pretty much identical to what the other DVD sources provide including the PAL one, the only major difference being the absolut loudness levels.

I guess the dialogs were too quiet for the reviewer's taste then within the mix and not in terms of absolut encoding level, as the Superbit NTSC DVD uses the same maximized mix as the PAL DVD except for the speed of course. I personally can't complain at all as it is a very decent and dynamic mix which asks to be turned up (I can watch it at -10dB on my Denon AVR without feeling too loud. Dialogs are well intelligable and the "propane gas scene" then kicks ass as it is supposed to do).

As long as there's no Cinema DTS CD showing up, I'd say, one of the Superbit R1 tracks are the way to go and synced to any HD video floating around. Neither am I too enthusiastic anymore about any eventual offical Blu-ray release of Panic Room as history shows that they often mangle around with the contrast and timing ("The Game", also from Fincher is greeting here).

Any other's analysis, comments and opinions are greatly appreciated of course!

I do have a Panic Room Cinema DTS.