[Proposal] Predator 2 Widescreen 2.05:1 version

[CSchmidlapp]

3:37.

[Stamper]

Thanks. Awesome! Now we see more clear. And we can solve the multi-aspect ratio problem of this film.

This viewfinder says that like the original Punisher this was shot for multiple aspect ratios. You can see the lines for 4/3 TV and 1.85, if you take the borders from side to side while keeping the 1.85:1 top you obtain exactly the 2.1 aspect ratio that is on VHS and Laserdisc, and probably was in 70mm prints.

I would say I saw a 2.1 70mm print since the theater I saw it in on release week was a 70mm theater.

I distinctly remember because when the SWAT got flying in the air I was like "WOW!". And the shot is cropped on BD/R1. First time I saw the LD I was like "Doh, it doesn't look as cool as in the theater". Of course, it was cropped so the impact was lesser.

The Japanese 2.35:1 was probably made by matting a bit the 2.1 release.

This explains the differences in framing between the BD/US DVD and the UK DVD. The UK DVD probably has border to border + more on top and bottom to maintain the 1.85:1 ratio. Whereas the badly cropped BD and US DVDs extract the border as show on the viewfinder in 1.85:1, only sightly offset so we get boom mikes on the LD/DVD.

So I guess we can reconstruct a 70mm 2.1 ratio from the UK DVD or open matte DVD. And / or a 2.39 1 can me made to match the JP LD though my guess is the 2.1 70mm is the best looking of them all.

BTW Top Gun is probably the exact same case, hence the multiple versions on DVD/LD/BD.

I will try via my contacts to trackdown Stephen Hopkins, it would be cool if he gives insight on this.

[zoidberg]

http://www.in70mm.com/library/blow_up/year/1990/

[Stamper]

Yes, this is for USA only. I think we in Europe saw 70mm 2.1, and this would explain why the European / Asian releases differ on home video. BTW that Predator POV shot of Hopkins from the trailer is not in the original film!

It is also said that Aliens 70mm was OAR blow up, but I know of several people who saw it back then who swear the film was wider. So I'm guessing there were some 2.1 aspect ratio 70mm blow up too, in Europe.

BTW anyone owns the Predator 2 Blu-ray Region A? Because it includes the Predator 2 original Dolby Surround mix as an extra, same one that was on Laserdisc "English: Dolby Digital 2.0 (224 kbps)"

[Bigrob]

Yes, this is for USA only. I think we in Europe saw 70mm 2.1, and this would explain why the European / Asian releases differ on home video. BTW that Predator POV shot of Hopkins from the trailer is not in the original film!

It is also said that Aliens 70mm was OAR blow up, but I know of several people who saw it back then who swear the film was wider. So I'm guessing there were some 2.1 aspect ratio 70mm blow up too, in Europe.

BTW anyone owns the Predator 2 Blu-ray Region A? Because it includes the Predator 2 original Dolby Surround mix as an extra, same one that was on Laserdisc "English: Dolby Digital 2.0 (224 kbps)"

I've seen Aliens on 70mm recently and can confirm that it was 1.85:1.

I remember seeing Liar Liar and Batman and Robin in the cinema though and they were projected at 2.00:1 (Liar Liar had the title credits cropped off) even though they were 1.85:1 and it was simply the projectionist adjusting the screen (why I have no idea) but just because it was displayed wider, doesn't mean that it was meant to be projected that way.

[Stamper]

Totally, each film is basically it's own case! But I'm certain Predator 2 was projected opened to 2.1 due to my experience in the cinema twice, never recaptured on DVD/BD. Plus all the different releases confirm there are different formats for the film. I will shop tomorrow for the SE DVD in PAL. It looks the best option for the moment.

[spoRv]

There are movies shown theatrically at 2.35:1 and found on home video (VHS, DVD, or TV broadcasting) full frame 1.33:1, so everything is possible...

[zoidberg]

I just messaged an eBay seller regarding the PAL laserdisc and he told me the AR is 2:1.

[CSchmidlapp]

I think we can safely say that Predator 2 was Shot and Released Theatrically in 1:85:1 AR.

I'm pretty sure the 4:3 guide on the 'video' feed is just there as a 'Safe Area' for the capture on the negative (Kind of like 'overscan' on video production from back in the day). Everything outside of that is garbage, but that's not saying it will or will not picked up that additional image ('Safe area' and 'guide' being the key words here).

This is pretty standard way of doing things. There are similar guide lines for 2:35:1 (and Variations) on Flat Academy acquisition. Often with a 4:3 guide on the same screen also for dual purpose delivery, giving more height information and less width. I think it's pretty rare to get the full open matte capture of the Original Camera Negative.
(This is not the case if the film is shot with anamorphic lenses.)

Re-read my post on the 'Scope' conversion of the Trailer. It appears they we're created so there was no need to swap the lens on the projector in a scope film presentation. Nothing to do with an alternative AR for the movie in question.

As for all the Home Video cock up's. Back to the Future 2 had a bad transfer on DVD where they matted it wrong for the 1:85:1 presentation which had a recall in the end. Its pretty much what has (probably) happened with Predator 2 over the years. We may find that the BD is actually the correct cropping. The LD and UK VHS are most probably errors with cropping on the top and bottom and the garbage information included on the sides much like the scope conversion.

The German DVD of The Killer has an irregular AR. It says 1:85:1 but is wider.
Play it on a CRT or with Overscan and it's perfect 1:85:1 (unlike most transfers which in these conditions are overcropped) The extra information on the sides are garbage, and you can see it is, due to sometimes seeing the edge of the film frame and warping ect.

[PDB]

I'm pretty sure the 4:3 guide on the 'video' feed is just there as a 'Safe Area' for the capture on the negative (Kind of like 'overscan' on video production from back in the day). Everything outside of that is garbage, but that's not saying it will or will not picked up that additional image ('Safe area' and 'guide' being the key words here).

This is pretty standard way of doing things. There are similar guide lines for 2:35:1 (and Variations) on Flat Academy acquisition. Often with a 4:3 guide on the same screen also for dual purpose delivery, giving more height information and less width. I think it's pretty rare to get the full open matte capture of the Original Camera Negative.
(This is not the case if the film is shot with anamorphic lenses.)

100% correct. Those are just standard guidelines. It's SOP for the time.

Re-read my post on the 'Scope' conversion of the Trailer. It appears they we're created so there was no need to swap the lens on the projector in a scope film presentation. Nothing to do with an alternative AR for the movie in question.

Also 100% correct.