[versions] Vintage Clint Eastwood films original audio preservation

[Stamper]

Oh yeah, will watch Kelly's Heroes tonight. I just watched Paint Your Wagon for the first time in decades, oh my, this is probably Clint misused at his worse. The way he is dressed is also comical.

[Stamper]

So I watched Kelly's Heroes on Blu-ray, man, the remix for once is I think an improvement over the original mix as heard on the dub tracks.

Captainsolo, you're saying the LD as an anemic mix, akin to the dub tracks? In this case I'm not sure I will bother buying the LD unless I find it really cheap.

[ac3]

The blurays of Kelly's heroes and the gauntlet sounds about the same as i remembered on VHS. No new sfx added. Tho the lfe for the heli crash in the gauntlet seems a bit heavy for an old movie.

[Stamper]

I compared The Gauntlet the last scene where they fire at the bus, and the foreign dubs don't have the same gun sounds. So it must be doctored.

I watched parts of Kelly's Heroes again, and I can't believe how good it sounds compared to the foreign dubs. I think they must have remixed from the stems that somehow they found, because that particular one should be hard to redo from scratch. If this is the case, it may mean the stems were found for other films, too bad Warner did not release any info on those 5.1 remixes.

[Stamper]

So I was checking the foreign languages mixes in Magnum Force for differences, and here's something weird I noticed: some of the mono mixes are actually made from the 5.1 remix.

It's easy to tell listening to the gunshot sounds the first time the Cop kills the bad guys early on. The original gunshots have a thunder like, deafening sound, whereas the remix has the gunshots sounding like someone is sneezing really hard.


MAGNUM FORCE AUDIO:

Dolby Digital Audio Japanese 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio French 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio German 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB REMIX
Dolby Digital Audio Italian 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio Spanish 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB REMIX
Dolby Digital Audio Spanish 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB / Dolby Surround REMIX
Dolby Digital Audio Portuguese 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX

What's weird is the Spanish dubs are different, so I expected the mono one to have original sounds, while the Castillan one obviously being from the remix as it's in stereo. Why would they downmix to mono, when they can have them both in stereo, it doesn't make sense.

Also I had no idea the German dub wasn't original. There's no reason as the movie was released in Germany back then.

I couldn't find any mention of a new German dub existing on the Bloody forum. But I saw someone did a fan remix by dumping the German mono track in the center channel of the 5.1 remix. I think the German dialogue is the original one, if it was not, someone would have mentioned it.

There's the possibility that those mixes (early Spanish, German) were "restored" by using the 5.1 remix as base, like, they took the foreign languages dialogue track from the original dubs, and dumped them into the 5.1 remix in the center channel, then folded them down. Maybe the original completely mixed tracks were damaged, and they just found the vocal tracks, but not the original M&E tracks, so they used the M&E from the 5.1. In any case, that doesn't make them the original mixes.

[Stamper]

More checking

THE ENFORCER AUDIO:

Dolby Digital Audio Japanese 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio French 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio German 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio Italian 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio Spanish 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio Spanish 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB REMIX
Dolby Digital Audio Portuguese 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX

So in this one, the second Spanish "mono" mix is made from the remix! Listening to it, you can hear weird phasing sounds in places like the liquor store shootout (meaning they folded down the 5.1 M&E tracks) that you can also hear on the 5.1 when played in stereo.

In addition, this uncovers another can of worms. It means that there may exist, on many discs, original mixes which are actually redone from the separate dialogue track and M&E tracks, so they aren't original. On the surface, the mix sounds original, but either the dialogue could be muted or too loud (or the M&E too low), or they lack dynamics when compared to the original mix, and this could explain why people complain about differences in mono tracks depending on the releases, even though the effects and music are untouched. These original tracks, though they don't feature changed effects sounds, are remixes from the stems.

It must be why fans who knows some films by heart, complain about the VHS sounding better in some instances, and the DVD or Blu-ray tracks sounding blah. I think this may have to do with noise reduction also, as rather than using a finished master, labs may prefer to digitise the dialogue track on it's own, remove any hiss on it, digitise the M&E track also separately, doctor it with some noise reduction and EQ adjustment, and then join them together, folding them down and calling it "original mix".

Unless I'm mistaken, I have never seen this kind of pipeline mentioned on any site dealing about original movies audio tracks. But the Magnum Force fake mono audio of the German and Spanish tracks proves it exists.

[Stamper]

For a few checking more...

SUDDEN IMPACT AUDIO

Dolby Digital Audio Japanese 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB HYBRID REMIX
Dolby Digital Audio French 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio German 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio Italian 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio Spanish 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB REMIX
Dolby Digital Audio Spanish 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB STEREO PROBABLY ORIGINAL MIX
Dolby Digital Audio Portuguese 192 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB ORIGINAL MIX

The Japanese dub has huge chunks of the film missing and filled with the english track. It's probably a TV track. Searching the Amazon japanese page of the Blu-ray didn't uncover any info on the dub however. Maybe the film was cut for censorship back in 1983. The track has some out of phase moments in places like the cafeteria shootout but other moments are the original gunshots like the Target practice. So it's a Hybrid mix.

The first Spanish track as the same out of phase sounds, so it was probably done at the same time as the 5.1 mix and the Japanese hybrid restoration. It looks like it is the vocal track dropped into the 5.1 quickly the whole way, then folded down to mono. They didn't even bother to use a few extra megabytes of the disc to leave it stereo.

The second Spanish track sounds like it's probably an original stereo mix. It's quite good sounding, and the stereo is wider than the 5.1 listened on stereo, with different placements for music etc.

The Portuguese is interesting, as it sounds different from the other original mono dubs, though it uses the same original M&E track. It has a nice rounded bass heavy EQ that makes for interesting listening in the action sequences and a much clearer soundfield.

[weegee2392]

Clint Eastwood vintage films are really all over the place when it comes to audio, with some of them forever destroyed by "modern" (ie 25 years old already) remixes with brand new sound effects.

So I thought similar to my Mad Max original remixes guide, it could be cool to gather all information in one place, and update as it goes.

THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, HENCE SOME PARTS AREN'T DETAILED.

First here's a list of Clint's films where the original mix is included. They are all from the same masters which go back to the DVD era. Recent releases are for most of them the source scan better compressed with some adjustments and some milliseconds delays that will be noted here as I review them:

Universal era

- Hang 'Em High: 2.0 mono on original releases in addition to nice 5.1 remix (no new sounds). Shout! new disc actually adds a stereo mix (no mono) however you can remux the old tracks to the Shout! as it is in sync with the old version. The LD to get if you really want the original sound is MGM [ML101399] from 1991. It is open matte mono 2.0 and include the mono mix in digital. The stereo tracks from Shout! sounds really great and is my go to, but probably the LD mono surpasses the Blu-ray & DVD mono.

- Googan's Bluff: 2.0 mono on all releases. Theres a New Shout! remaster out summer 2021. The difference between the old Universal disc and the Shout! is +1043ms. This was only released on LD with analog audio, in both in the USA MCA/Universal [40867] and Japan CIC [SF078-1513].

- Two Mules for Sister Sara: This is where it get weird. This title was never released on Laserdisc! For unknown reasons. Lucky for us, it's 2.0 mono on all releases worldwide. To mux foreign language tracks from the Universal Blu to the new release, you need to add a 1043ms delay. On a note, the new restored mono sounds different (better EQ) than the old, so keep them both.

- The Beguiled: 2.0 mono on all releases. Only one LD was released, lucky for us with the mono mix in both digital and analog, MCA/Universal [41235]. There is no delay between the old and the new Blu-ray editions.

- Play Misty For Me: 2.0 mono on all releases. There is one LD from 1991 that has the mono track in digital if you're a purist, MCA/Universal [12-024]. There are two other early LDs from the US and Japan but they are analog only. The delay between the old release and the Kino is 1s1ms = 1043ms.

- Breezy: 2.0 mono on all releases. This is another Clint film that never appeared on LD. I recommend the Kino Lorber 2020 release. The mono is DTS-HD with foreign dubs DTS on all releases. To adjust the foreign Blu-ray discs tracks to the Kino, you need a delay of +918ms.

- Joe Kidd: 2.0 mono on all releases. The go get is the Kino 2020 release which is the same master as the Universal, just sightly improved (VC1 vs AVC). To mux the Universal disc tracks to the Kino, you need a delay of 918ms. The LD version with digital track is the MCA/Universal [14004].

- High Plains Drifter: you can find the 2.0 mono on the DVD. The go to Blu-ray is the recent Oct. 2020 Kino edition which sports the best PQ. The stereo track on the new BR however is stereo but apparently with the original sound effects intact. So you need to remux either the DVD mono track, or the LD track, to have the original release mix. There was a LD version with digital track, MCA/Universal [14002]. Like other Clint movies from the Warner era, however, it looks like the mono version was just a folddown of a stereo mixed master. So the Kino stereo is either a fold down of the 5.1, or a straight stereo rip of the stems. There is a 917ms delay between old editions and the new Kino remaster.

- The Eiger Sanction: 2.0 mono on all releases. This is a weird one, because no release is acceptable. There is a recent November 2020 Kino Blu-ray with nice PQ using the same old scan from the source, but it as wonky colors, faces are salmon red in many shots. The old Blu-ray is over sharpened as it is an old DVD master, unwatchable. The NTSC DVD actually looks fine despite the lack of definition but it has some weird flickering on the top of the image. There were two LD releases in P&S analog. The Widescreen LD with the digital track in 2.0 from 1992 is MCA/Universal [41262]. There is a 42ms delay between the old editions and the new master.

United Artists era

- Thunderbolt & Lightfoot: 2.0 mono on all releases. There were 2 CED releases and 3 LD releases all in mono 1 channel, and the one with the digital track in widescreen from 1991 is MGM/UA [ML102232]. This film is Clint only film for United Artists (now MGM/Disney) due to the poor box office due to the poor release, Eastwood never made the second film he was contracted to do for them. As such, it somehow exists on it's own and is released all over the world by small labels. Prefered version is Kino (the most recent release), with Twilight Time having done an old Blu. Capelight in Germany, and Carlotta in France. To mux the french tracks to the Kino, you need a delay of 7049ms.

Warner era

Universal, went cheap on Clint as they only scanned the films once over 25 years ago when DVD started, but they did not play with the soundtracks. Warner, which his Clint home, has however destroyed all his filmmaking legacy by remixing most of his films for DVD and Blu-ray and releasing most of them in the outdated VC1 encoding format. Only 5 films escaped the slaughter, the ones not considered commercial, which is completely crazy as they have better treatment than the classics! They are available either as Web-DL of low quality from Amazon, or Warner Archive recent releases:

- Bronco Billy: The film is 2.0 surround on DVD, + Warner Archive 2019 Blu-ray is mono. If you check out the old releases, there was a Warner Home Video CED in analog mono and a LD Warner Home Video [11104] from 1989 in reprocessed stereo. So it means the Blu-ray has the CED mix, while the DVD is probably the reprocessed Stereo remix from the stems from 1989.

- Honkytonk Man: 5.1 (remix) on DVD. There is no Blu-ray, other dub tracks are mono. The only LD was reprocessed stereo (it means the original mix was mono). It's Warner Home Video [11305]. There's an AMAZON WEB-DL IN 2.0.

- Bird: 5.1 (remix) on DVD, other dub tracks are Dolby Surround. AMAZON WEB-DL IN 2.0
- Pink Cadillac: 5.1 (remix) on DVD, other dub tracks are mono or stereo or surround. AMAZON WEB-DL IN 2.0
- White Hunter Black Heart: 5.1 (remix) on DVD, other dub tracks are surround. AMAZON WEB-DL IN 2.0


Now here are the ones that were destroyed by remixing with new foley sounds, changed gunshots sounds etc.:
Those two I'm not sure sounds were changed as they probably had 70mm releases in multi-channel, but they are nonetheless remixed:

1. Where Eagles Dare: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are surround or mono. It may be that the surround tracks are actually fold down of the 5.1 with the dialogues swapped ie not true original dub mixes. Stereo mix on LD on the internal organ. A 131mn shorter version that ran in theaters during the film second run is missing in all formats. VC1 encode.

2. Kelly's Heroes: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are surround or mono. Stereo mix on LD. I'm very curious to hear the LD, as out of all the remixes of Clint's Warner films, this one actually is very impressive and improve the movie immersion, compared to the anemic foreign mono dubs mixes included. VC1 encode.

Malpaso productions, mono era (except Firefox).
This is the cheap Malpaso phase, before Clint establishes himself as an icon, so all films are mono well into the 80's, with the exception of Firefox for obvious reasons. However, in the LD / VHS era, these films begins to be remixed from the stems in stereo, as the stems were stereo before being collapsed to mono for 35mm release. Then in the DVD era, the soundtracks are all redone in 5.1 with changed foley.

3. Dirty Harry: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono. Original mix was mono, folded down from stereo stems. Transfers from the stems were made in stereo in 1990 and 1992. The first 1990 release was Pan & Scan and the 1992 release widescreen, but I can't tell if the stereo mix differs until I buy them both. Also the 1994 version from the LD box set may, or may not be another different from the widescreen stereo remaster. Many sounds are changed on this remix, like the other ones from the series. VC1 encode on Blu-ray, looking antique.

Mono mix:
There are two sources, with the JP LD apparently being digital.
- Warner Home Video [1019 LV] 1983 USA LD Analog one channel. Pan & Scan (Green sleeve)
- Warner Home Video [NJEL-01019] 1989 JP LD Digital two channels Pan & Scan (Brown sleeve).

Stereo mix:
I assume there are two different Stereo versions, the first being the Pan & Scan one, then a redo for the widescreen version, but maybe the audio is the same. I also think the single LD widescreen and the box set version are the same mix as they are only 2 years apart.
- Warner Home Video [1019] 1990 USA LD Pan & Scan listed on lddb as analog  but it's an error, the sleeve says digital.
- Warner Home Video [12483] 1992 USA LD digital Widescreen
- Warner Home Video The Dirty Harry Collection [13613] 1994 LD digital Widescreen

Dolby Surround Mix:
- Warner Home Video [16746] 1999 LD  has both the 5.1 remix in AC3 and a Dolby Surround version of the same. probably useless now, but a curiosity.


4. Magnum Force: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono. Original mix was mono, folded down from stereo stems. Transfers from the stems were made in stereo in 1989 and 1994, however the 1994 version has one missing cue. Nothing we can't fix using the 1989 to patch it up. VC1 encode.

Mono mix:
- Warner Home Video [1039 LV] US LD Analog Pan & Scan
- Warner Home Video [NJEL-01039] 1989 JP LD Analog Pan & Scan (blue sleeve)

Stereo mix:
- Warner Home Video [1039 A/B] 1989 US LD Digital Pan & Scan
- Warner Home Video The Dirty Harry Collection [13613] 1994 LD digital Widescreen (2nd stereo mix, one missing cue).

5. The Enforcer: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono. 3 other mixes exists, mono, Stereo 87 and Stereo 94. VC1 encode.
6. The Outlaw Josey Wales: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono. Others mixes : Mono JP LD, Stereo 1987, Stereo 1995. 5.1 remix 1999 with DS.
7. The Gauntlet: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono. 3 other mixes exists, Mono JP LD, Stereo 1989 and Dolby Surround 1995. VC1 encode.
8. Every Which Way But Loose: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono. 2 other mixes exists, Mono JP LD, and Stereo 1989. VC1 encode.
9. Any Which Way You Can: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono. The LDs are mono. No Stereo remix ever made.
11. Firefox: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are stereo. Stereo LD + 1995 Dolby Surround (remix from the stems)
12. Sudden Impact: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono. 2 mixes exists mono and Stereo 94. VC1 encode.
13. Tightrope: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono except Port. & Spa. in surround (derived). LD was mono. This was the last Malpaso production released in mono.

Malpaso productions, Stereo era.
In the VHS & LD explosion era, Malpaso transitions it's productions to Stereo and Dolby Surround.

14. City Heat: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono except Spanish stereo. (derived?) LD is Stereo. I'm pretty sure most foreign dubs were stereo.
15. Pale Rider: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono except Spanish surround. (derived?) Dolby Surround LDs 86 & 95. I'm pretty sure most foreign dubs were stereo. VC1 encode.
16. Heartbreak Ridge: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono or stereo. There is an european R2 DVD which has the french Dolby Stereo Mix, which was downmixed to mono on Blu-ray. LD is Stereo. VC1 encode.
17. The Dead Pool: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are mono or surround depending the release. 2 french mixes m+s. LD is Dolby Surround. VC1 encode.
18. The Rookie: the 5.1 is from 70mm release, other dub tracks are surround. They have similar foley so this one is good. VC1 encode.
18. Unforgiven: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are surround. LD is Dolby Surround.
19. A Perfect World: 5.1 (remix) other dub tracks are surround. LD is Dolby Surround
20. In the Line Of Fire: 5.1 (remix), LD is Dolby Surround. Anemic surround track on the UHD.

Malpaso productions, 5.1 era.
In the mid-nineties, Clint transitions to 5.1 for all his productions, probably after he gets a home-cinema THX set-up installed and discover the marvels of stereo in the surround channels at home. The following productions were mixed and released in both 5.1 and Dolby Surround.

21. The Bridges of Madison County was released in 5.1. LD has both 5.1 & DS. Need to check if the sounds were changed for DVD.
22. Absolute Power was released in 5.1. LD has both 5.1 & DS. This was 1997 so probably never remixed. VC1 encode.
23. Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil was released in 5.1. LD has both 5.1 & DS. This was 1997 so probably never remixed. This only exist as a Warner Archives Blu-ray release and on DVD.
24. True Crime was released in 5.1. LD has both 5.1 & DS. Last Clint film released on LD.

That make about 20 of his films where the original english mixes are gone from home-video.

Hang ‘Em High is actually UA but glad to know that the 5.1 is just a remix and nothing too crazy happened. Shout really should’ve included The original mono as an option.

[Stamper]

Universal Artists LOL you're right, I fixed it. The mono for Hang 'em High is on all the other editions though, only in lossy Dolby Digital. As noted, no delay needed when remuxing, but it's very unimpressive and bland next to the Kino stereo track.

[weegee2392]

Universal Artists LOL you're right, I fixed it. The mono for Hang 'em High in on all the other editions though, only in lossy Dolby Digital.

That’s what I meant by they should have included the original mono mix, but I should’ve added “in lossless” oh well at least we got the LPCM from the LD.
EDIT:The reason why I said I was glad to know that the surround sound mix has nothing too crazy on it, because any other Western be destroyed if was given to someone else. TGTBATU comes to mind.(now that I think about it I shouldn’t have mentioned that film’s 2000’s restoration 5.1 mix.)
EDIT 2 in addition to being done for United Artists, it was the very first film Malpaso ever made.