Outbreak (1995) Audio Comparison LD/DVD/BD/4K

[bendermac]

Welp, Shout Factory just released Outbreak on 4K Blu-ray and I'm not super happy. No extras for this movie at all. But for the audio I was hoping to get a proper restoration of the audio. The LaserDisc was just awesome and many used it for demos back in the day. The R1 DVD should have the same mix, but I don't have it to verify. I was able to get the audio from the R2 DVD though.. The Warner Blu-ray came with a Dolby TrueHD mix, while the new Shout Factory 4K has a DTS-HD MA mix. Judging purely from the spectrogram, I'd give the Warner Bros the lead. The Shout Factory looks a little bit filtered. The 2.0 PCM from the LD is still awesome.

[Beber]

This is what CiNEPHiLES had to say about it:
"This movie has two mixes Dolby Stereo SR digital and Stereo SR for other theatres not equipped for 5.1 surround. The mixes vary in some parts, so I decided to include both. For 5.1, Shout Factory still has good dynamic range for being lossless, while the previous Warner's blu-ray had less, with inept filtering on the center and lots of dithering (the TrueHD 5.1 is 16-bit, just has a 24-bit padding), so kept the shout one. For the stereo mix, the Shout seems to have the stereo mix but has limiting and some NR on mids and highs vs the USA LaserDisc, so synced the LaserDisc audio to the remux."

[bendermac]

Dang it... Cinephiles was already on it HAHAHA... I just finished syncing the LD

[dvdmike]

The LD upmixed to prologic Z well also, have some semblance of height with some scenes

[little-endian]

@bendermac

Thanks for the comparison. Just stumbled over this thread, notoriously searching for comparison as one can never trust that a never release is better in all aspects.

A few remarks on the Cinephiles quote:

"For 5.1, Shout Factory still has good dynamic range for being lossless[...]

That part doesn't make sense to me. Not that lossy codecs (against the common myth) would reduce the dynamic range in any way (on the contrary, their floating point architecture often allows for higher ones even compared to 24-bit-PCM which is already insane), but why would a track "being lossless" not have good dynamic range when in doubt? Given commonly audibly transparent codecs, the quality is effectively determined by the content, not the messenger/container, also despite common misbeliefs.

"[...]with inept filtering on the center and lots of dithering (the TrueHD 5.1 is 16-bit, just has a 24-bit padding)[...]

Neither will proper dithering make any audible difference, unnecessarily padded to 24-bit or not.


Their approach to deliver to preserve different audio track sources is very nice though.

[commandrbond]

A few remarks on the Cinephiles quote:

"For 5.1, Shout Factory still has good dynamic range for being lossless[...]

That part doesn't make sense to me. Not that lossy codecs (against the common myth) would reduce the dynamic range in any way (on the contrary, their floating point architecture often allows for higher ones even compared to 24-bit-PCM which is already insane), but why would a track "being lossless" not have good dynamic range when in doubt? Given commonly audibly transparent codecs, the quality is effectively determined by the content, not the messenger/container, also despite common misbeliefs.

I can't speak for them but from my experience in analyzing and comparing audio mixes, I've found that 9 times out of 10 the modern lossless version has been processed in some way or another, a lot of times actually degrading its dynamic range in favor of in-your-face loudness, like the old CD loudness wars.  So for the most part, the whole HD lossless audio selling point for blu-rays and UHDs is a gimmick.

[commandrbond]

I just did my own comparison of the LD AC3, DVD AC3, and UHD DTS-HD waveforms and spectrograms.  Here are my findings:

-UHD has high frequency extension reaching from 20-23khz.  LD and DVD have hard cutoffs at 18khz. (Usually this is not a big deal, IMO, as most people can't hear that high anyway)
-UHD has some evidence of peak-limiting and flat-topping but not a whole lot.  LD and DVD have none.
-UHD LCR volume are pretty much balanced whereas the LD/DVD Center channels are about 1db louder than their mains.
-UHD LFE is about 3db louder in comparison to its front stage than the LD/DVD.  UHD LFE has more a bit more dynamic range but that could be due to HF leakage extending past 1000hz, whereas the LD/DVD has leakage only up to about 500hz or so.
-UHD Surrounds are about 2db louder in comparison to its front stage than the LD/DVD, BUT have less dynamic range.
-On average, the UHD is 1.28db more dynamic than the LD and 1.5db more dynamic than the DVD.  HOWEVER, the UHD does show signs of DNR; whether its audible is up to the listener.
-Overall, the DVD is the loudest and most compressed version but with less DNR than the UHD, no peak-limiting, and the more conservative soundstage balance of the LD.  

The boosted LFE and Surrounds on the UHD may be evidence of "modern sweetening" or perhaps the LD/DVD were near-field mixes?  Who knows. 

Whether any of these differences are actually audible or important is up for the listener to decide.

[Kameraposti]

Hi
Thanks for the comparison. One difference that also comes to mind is the near field vs far field audio. Often the stereo track sounds wider and all the instruments, vocals and effects ”have their own place” vs newly remastered super duper audio near field ”everything sounds cramped”.

[dvdmike]

Has anyone synced the LD to the UHD?

[little-endian]

I just did my own comparison of the LD AC3, DVD AC3, and UHD DTS-HD waveforms and spectrograms.  Here are my findings:

Thanks a lot for your elaborate and profound analysis! Would be interesting to know if you have done other comparisons as well. For instance, the movie "Gravity" is also an interesting case as the CinemaDTS mix is quite different from the retail home releases.

I can't speak for them but from my experience in analyzing and comparing audio mixes, I've found that 9 times out of 10 the modern lossless version has been processed in some way or another[...]

Ah yeah, as I thought their description is just a bit unclear as once again, it's about the message (mix/mastering) and not the messenger (codec/format).

Has anyone synced the LD to the UHD?

Well, apparently @bendermac has synced it as he reported here and also the Cinephiles-release contains it which @Beber was kind enough to share. So including me you should have some resources.