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2015-05-24, 01:00 PM
(This post was last modified: 2015-05-24, 01:02 PM by Turisu.)
Thanks for the comparisons.
I like the open frame of the Canal+ version and the detail is clearly better than the Sky HD capture. I have the following questions if you don't mind:
How does the Canal+ compare to the WOWOW in motion?
Does the Canal+ have the Universal logo at the beginning?
Are there any channel logos or foreign subtitles in the Canal+?
Is the Canal+ available on rutracker or any other non-Usenet source?
Andrea, which version in your opinion would be the best source for a preservation? I'm conscious that the extra work involved in removing the logos from the WOWOW may be too much.
Also, a small correction to your summary of sources: the 2DBD has no DNR as far as I know. It's just a over-sharpened version of the HDTV master. In fact, if you apply heavy sharpening to the HDTV you end up with it looking almost identical to the 2DBD.
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(2015-05-24, 01:00 PM)Turisu Wrote: How does the Canal+ compare to the WOWOW in motion?
They seems really similar to me... the differences are not that noticeable, but once you know they are there, you are doomed! 
Quote:Does the Canal+ have the Universal logo at the beginning?
Nope. But the SKY has it, so it could be used for that.
Quote:Are there any channel logos or foreign subtitles in the Canal+?
Have watched the few instances where there are subs, and no other subs apart English ones.
Quote:Is the Canal+ available on rutracker or any other non-Usenet source?
Not on RT, unless the one found there is a reencode; it's on the wild outside Usenet, though!
Quote:Andrea, which version in your opinion would be the best source for a preservation? I'm conscious that the extra work involved in removing the logos from the WOWOW may be too much.
Not too much hassle to remove the WOWOW logo/japanese subs; I think there are some small details preserved better in WOWOW, while Canal+ is almost always better; averaging them could the best solution IMHO, but further testing is needed.
Quote:Also, a small correction to your summary of sources: the 2DBD has no DNR as far as I know. It's just a over-sharpened version of the HDTV master. In fact, if you apply heavy sharpening to the HDTV you end up with it looking almost identical to the 2DBD.
Corrected, thanks!
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It seems the version I have is the Canal+ after all. 
I believe the Canal+ would be the best source to use because it has little perceivable difference to the WOWOW, it has the more open frame and it has no logos to remove.
The Universal logo would have to be added from another source. Does the WOWOW have it? If not then the 2DBD desharpened should be the best match as it does not have the heavy compression of the Sky HD. What do you think?
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As I wrote before, Sky has the logo, so I'll use it instead BD, because it's open matte.
About your Canal+ file: please post Mediainfo video data here, inside a CODE
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Ah, of course. I'd forgotten about the open-matte aspect ratio. Good point.
Media info for the version I have is as follows:
Code: General
UniqueID/String : 212271457241676676542619425916400281426 (0x9FB1FEDE9895EF86AA540048DFEDA752)
CompleteName : E:\Jurassic Park\iurskiy park.mkv
Format : Matroska
Format_Version : Version 1
FileSize/String : 10.9 GiB
Duration/String : 2h 6mn
OverallBitRate/String : 12.4 Mbps
Encoded_Date : UTC 2008-12-27 09:41:10
Encoded_Application/String : mkvmerge v2.1.0 ('Another Place To Fall') built on Aug 19 2007 13:40:07
Encoded_Library/String : libebml v0.7.7 + libmatroska v0.8.1
Video
ID/String : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format_Profile : High@L4.1
Format_Settings_CABAC/String : Yes
Format_Settings_RefFrames/String : 4 frames
CodecID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration/String : 2h 6mn
BitRate/String : 11.0 Mbps
BitRate_Nominal/String : 11.7 Mbps
Width/String : 1 920 pixels
Height/String : 1 080 pixels
DisplayAspectRatio/String : 16:9
FrameRate_Mode/String : Constant
FrameRate/String : 23.976 fps
FrameRate_Original/String : 25.000 fps
ColorSpace : YUV
ChromaSubsampling : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String : 8 bits
ScanType/String : Progressive
Bits-(Pixel*Frame) : 0.221
StreamSize/String : 9.67 GiB (89%)
Encoded_Library/String : x264 core 65 r1040M 1591275
Encoded_Library_Settings : cabac=1 / ref=4 / deblock=1:-2:-2 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=umh / subme=8 / psy_rd=1.4:0.0 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / nr=0 / decimate=0 / mbaff=0 / bframes=5 / b_pyramid=1 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=11700 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:0.60
Language/String : Russian
Default/String : Yes
Forced/String : No
Audio #1
ID/String : 2
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format_Settings_ModeExtension : CM (complete main)
Format_Settings_Endianness : Big
CodecID : A_AC3
Duration/String : 2h 6mn
BitRate_Mode/String : Constant
BitRate/String : 384 Kbps
Channel(s)/String : 6 channels
ChannelPositions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
SamplingRate/String : 48.0 KHz
BitDepth/String : 16 bits
Compression_Mode/String : Lossy
StreamSize/String : 346 MiB (3%)
Language/String : Russian
Default/String : Yes
Forced/String : No
Audio #2
ID/String : 3
Format : DTS
Format/Info : Digital Theater Systems
Format_Settings_Mode : 16
Format_Settings_Endianness : Big
CodecID : A_DTS
Duration/String : 2h 6mn
BitRate_Mode/String : Constant
BitRate/String : 755 Kbps
Channel(s)/String : 6 channels
ChannelPositions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
SamplingRate/String : 48.0 KHz
BitDepth/String : 16 bits
Compression_Mode/String : Lossy
StreamSize/String : 681 MiB (6%)
Language/String : English
Default/String : No
Forced/String : No
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Yours:
Code: Format : Matroska
Format_Version : Version 1
FileSize/String : 10.9 GiB
Duration/String : 2h 6mn
OverallBitRate/String : 12.4 Mbps
Encoded_Date : UTC 2008-12-27 09:41:10
Encoded_Application/String : mkvmerge v2.1.0 ('Another Place To Fall') built on Aug 19 2007 13:40:07
Encoded_Library/String : libebml v0.7.7 + libmatroska v0.8.1
Video
ID/String : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format_Profile : High@L4.1
Format_Settings_CABAC/String : Yes
Format_Settings_RefFrames/String : 4 frames
CodecID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration/String : 2h 6mn
BitRate/String : 11.0 Mbps
BitRate_Nominal/String : 11.7 Mbps
Width/String : 1 920 pixels
Height/String : 1 080 pixels
DisplayAspectRatio/String : 16:9
FrameRate_Mode/String : Constant
FrameRate/String : 23.976 fps
FrameRate_Original/String : 25.000 fps
ColorSpace : YUV
ChromaSubsampling : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String : 8 bits
ScanType/String : Progressive
Bits-(Pixel*Frame) : 0.221
StreamSize/String : 9.67 GiB (89%)
Encoded_Library/String : x264 core 65 r1040M 1591275
Encoded_Library_Settings : cabac=1 / ref=4 / deblock=1:-2:-2 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=umh / subme=8 / psy_rd=1.4:0.0 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / nr=0 / decimate=0 / mbaff=0 / bframes=5 / b_pyramid=1 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=11700 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:0.60
Language/String : Russian
Default/String : Yes
Forced/String : No
Mine:
Code: Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 1
File size : 11.7 GiB
Duration : 2h 6mn
Overall bit rate : 13.3 Mbps
Movie name : HQ-FIlms
Encoded date : UTC 2008-12-26 07:50:29
Writing application : mkvmerge v2.4.0 ('Fumbling Towards Ecstasy') built on Oct 11 2008 20:13:15
Writing library : libebml v0.7.7 + libmatroska v0.8.1
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 2h 6mn
Bit rate : 10.9 Mbps
Nominal bit rate : 11.7 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Original frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.220
Stream size : 9.65 GiB (82%)
Writing library : x264 core 65 r1040M 1591275
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=4 / deblock=1:-2:-2 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=umh / subme=8 / psy_rd=1.4:0.0 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / nr=0 / decimate=0 / mbaff=0 / bframes=5 / b_pyramid=1 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=11700 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:0.60
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Almost all the data are the same - encoding settings are perfectly identical... don't know why the Bit rate, Stream size and Bits/(Pixel*Frame) differ, probably it's due to Matroska version used to encode the files - mine seems a bit newer, but I bet they are the same!
I wonder if there is the *untouched* version somewhere...
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Yours seems to have been encoded earlier so perhaps mine is a re-encode of yours or perhaps (as you suggest) they are both re-encodes of a superior master capture. Yours does seem to have the higher bitrate though so it's undoubtedly the better source.
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I have both versions and can verify the above info and that they are both from Canal+ Film HD. Due to the fact that the settings are identical, I am guessing that the video stream is THE SAME encode. When remuxing with different versions of mkvmerge (same as in this case of version 2.1.0 vs version 2.4.0) it will give a slightly different "final" mediainfo streamsize by about that difference.
For the most part, the Canal+ encode is superior to all others, however I believe that the "best" result would still be achieved by way of layering the Canal+ and WOWOW (delogo'ed, of course) sources together. The SkyHD version is by far the lowest quality of all the HDTV encodes.
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2015-05-25, 12:14 AM
(This post was last modified: 2015-05-25, 12:57 AM by X5gb.)
(2015-05-24, 10:10 AM)spoRv Wrote: I solved a mystery!!! The Russian version (at least, the one I grabbed, which video size is 9.65 GiB) is NOT a re-encoded SKY... it should be a re-encode for sure, according to what I read on Mediainfo, BUT... it's from Canal+ Film HD!!!
Don't know why there is no logo (unless there is one that periodically appears, but don't think this is the case), but do you know how I discovered it? Well, the very last frame is grey with the logo, but you can't spot it in a normal player... I loaded the file with VirtualDub via AviSynth... Jerry, please check your version and post here if it has the same frame!
So, at the end, we have:
Code: 3D Blu-ray - 1.85:1 - EE DNR; color grading similar to the original
2D Blu-ray - 1.85:1 - EE, over sharpened; different color grading from the original
WOWOW MPEG2 - 1.85:1 - color grading like 2D BD
Canal+ AVC - 1.78:1 - color grading like 2D BD; more cropped than SKY HD
SKY HD AVC - 1.78:1 - color grading like 2D BD; less cropped than Canal+
WOWOW Vs Canal+: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/128459
WOWOW Vs SKY: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/128460
Canal+ Vs SKY: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/128461 I did mention earlier it could be Canal+ with the logo removed using a matt script from another transfer.
(2015-05-24, 01:00 PM)Turisu Wrote: Thanks for the comparisons.
I like the open frame of the Canal+ version and the detail is clearly better than the Sky HD capture. I have the following questions if you don't mind:
How does the Canal+ compare to the WOWOW in motion?
Does the Canal+ have the Universal logo at the beginning?
Are there any channel logos or foreign subtitles in the Canal+?
Is the Canal+ available on rutracker or any other non-Usenet source?
Andrea, which version in your opinion would be the best source for a preservation? I'm conscious that the extra work involved in removing the logos from the WOWOW may be too much.
Also, a small correction to your summary of sources: the 2DBD has no DNR as far as I know. It's just a over-sharpened version of the HDTV master. In fact, if you apply heavy sharpening to the HDTV you end up with it looking almost identical to the 2DBD. (2015-05-25, 12:14 AM)X5gb Wrote: (2015-05-24, 10:10 AM)spoRv Wrote: I solved a mystery!!! The Russian version (at least, the one I grabbed, which video size is 9.65 GiB) is NOT a re-encoded SKY... it should be a re-encode for sure, according to what I read on Mediainfo, BUT... it's from Canal+ Film HD!!!
Don't know why there is no logo (unless there is one that periodically appears, but don't think this is the case), but do you know how I discovered it? Well, the very last frame is grey with the logo, but you can't spot it in a normal player... I loaded the file with VirtualDub via AviSynth... Jerry, please check your version and post here if it has the same frame!
So, at the end, we have:
Code: 3D Blu-ray - 1.85:1 - EE DNR; color grading similar to the original
2D Blu-ray - 1.85:1 - EE, over sharpened; different color grading from the original
WOWOW MPEG2 - 1.85:1 - color grading like 2D BD
Canal+ AVC - 1.78:1 - color grading like 2D BD; more cropped than SKY HD
SKY HD AVC - 1.78:1 - color grading like 2D BD; less cropped than Canal+
WOWOW Vs Canal+: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/128459
WOWOW Vs SKY: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/128460
Canal+ Vs SKY: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/128461 I did mention earlier it could be Canal+ with the logo removed using a matt script from another transfer. My two cents.
If this is supposed to be a preservation then it should be the correct theatrical aspect ratio which is 1.85:1 not the open matte 1:78:1 of either the Canal+ or Sky and remember the Canal+ is a re-encode using x264 not untouched which is why there is no logo as it has been removed using an overlay script. Having seen all three in motion as already said the Wowow has more detail than all the others and more of the negative grain which is a very good thing, not a bad thing and like already said this is a preservation so should be as close to the negative as possible. Either of the other two should be used to get rid of the logos / onscreen text Jap subtitles and the minor macroblocking of the Wowow followed by the all around agreed color timing.
Edit: Scrub what I just said from using the Canal+ as a source to remove the logos / onscreen text, a big no no, like I thought this has used an overlay to remove the Canal+ Logo and hasn't been done very well, zoom in on the top right of the picture where Richard Attenborough is smiling where the fish tank is and if you look carefully you can still make out the logo, the Sky no question should be used as an overlay.
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2015-05-25, 01:10 AM
(This post was last modified: 2015-05-25, 01:18 AM by TServo2049.)
The problem with using the 1.85 ratio is that the 1.85 versions are all framed too tightly at the top. If the WOWOW is used, I think the Canal+/Sky/whatever should be used to lay in the extra picture on the edges (and maybe if we do want 1.85.1, a little could be shaved off the final combined image?)
I can't figure out why multiple transfers have had the same tightened cropping at the top. It can't be right...
And I do prefer the glowy subtitles, it feels more "optical" than the sharp ones of the other transfers. If the sharp ones are a recomposite, then I think the glowy ones should be used.
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