[In progress] The Shining 1980 / Open-Matte / 1080p / US Cut

[LaurentLaSalle]

When you say there's "no way" to grab the "file" from LaserDisc audio as PCM, I'm not sure if you're just specifically referring to your chosen LaserDisc or the format in general but this film exists on multiple newer and probably better LaserDiscs that do have PCM digital audio. Did you just choose the 1981 release because it's "original" or did you not know this? Even analogue LD audio is occasionally better than DVD or Blu-ray audio because more modern formats are generally more likely to have audio that has been messed with ("restored") in ways that destroy the integrity of the original presentation. With mono, it's arguably slightly less of a problem if you use a compressed source (e.g. DVD) but that doesn't make much difference if the recording has been mucked about so badly that it sounds terrible.

Also, there is a project that exists to record and then decode (after the fact) the raw RF modulated information from a modified player, but I've never looked into it in any great depth in relation to audio specifically and I suspect it's more useful for video. For PCM it's largely pointless because you can get a bit perfect copy of that already if you configure your setup correctly, which there are guides on the forum for.

I was talking about using an (imaginary) LaserDisc drive connected to a PC to get the full uncompressed mono mix file. Sony apparently introduced a LaserDisc format that could store digital data back in 1984, but I doubt you could find a usuable drive today compatible with modern hardware; let alone how hard it might be to grab the audio file in question.

My video knowledge is far supperior than anything related to audio, so I was not aware that recording PCM through analog with a good / calibrated setup could be considered as a perfect transfer.

Traditionnally, mono mixes are rarely ever tinkered with, so I doubt you would get a better sounding version on newer LaserDisc. But I agree with you on stereo and 5.1; we can suspect every single DVD or Blu-ray releases to sound different.

But fear not, me buying a 1981 LaserDisc had nothing to do with it's mono mix. It's for the memorabilia more than anything else.

[pipefan413]

I was talking about using an (imaginary) LaserDisc drive connected to a PC to get the full uncompressed mono mix file. Sony apparently introduced a LaserDisc format that could store digital data back in 1984, but I doubt you could find a usuable drive today compatible with modern hardware; let alone how hard it might be to grab the audio file in question.

... As I said, you absolutely can transfer a bit-perfect identical copy of LaserDisc PCM off a LaserDisc and many of us do. But it isn't anything to do with a "LaserDisc drive", the player is connected via TOSLINK to a suitable sound card. There is a *lot* of info about this already on the forum, you should probably do some reading.

My video knowledge is far supperior than anything related to audio, so I was not aware that recording PCM through analog with a good / calibrated setup could be considered as a perfect transfer.

I never said "perfect". I said "better". And you're misunderstanding: I'm not suggesting you record digital PCM audio over analogue outputs; I'm saying if you're using an old (pre-digital) LaserDisc like your 1981 one, it obviously won't have digital PCM, so analogue is the only option. If you have a LaserDisc with PCM on it, though, you would want to use digital connection (TOSLINK/coax SPDIF) rather than analogue.

Traditionnally, mono mixes are rarely ever tinkered with, so I doubt you would get a better sounding version on newer LaserDisc. But I agree with you on stereo and 5.1; we can suspect every single DVD or Blu-ray releases to sound different.

This is just plainly wrong, I'm afraid. Mono mixes are often the *most* tampered with, not just in terms of content, but sonically... again, huge wealth of info about this on here already. I'd suggest doing a bit of research. The situation is much worse than you seem to realise.

But fear not, me buying a 1981 LaserDisc had nothing to do with it's mono mix. It's for the memorabilia more than anything else.

Fair enough!

[LaurentLaSalle]

Dude, chill out.

I was only clarifying what I meant in my first post when I was talking about grabbing a file from a LaserDisc. I was not disagreeing with you in any way shape or form.

About your suggestion for using a digital connection, even though as you said my disc won't have PCM since it was made in 1981; the LaserDisc player I am seeking, should it work, doesn't have a TOSLINK output anyway.

[pipefan413]

Dude, chill out.

I was only clarifying what I meant in my first post when I was talking about grabbing a file from a LaserDisc. I was not disagreeing with you in any way shape or form.

About your suggestion for using a digital connection, even though as you said my disc won't have PCM since it was made in 1981; the LaserDisc player I am seeking, should it work, doesn't have a TOSLINK output anyway.

Don't tell me to "chill out". I wasn't arguing with you, nor did I think you were "disagreeing"; rather, I was trying to help you, since it was evident that you were making several incorrect assumptions which would prevent you from understanding some important stuff. Mono audio is some of the absolute worst-handled on Blu-ray and this was sometimes true on DVD as well, but LaserDisc mono (even occasionally analogue tracks) generally tends to be better. In some cases, a LaserDisc with PCM will itself have been "cleaned up" in some detrimental way but another LD with only analogue mono (or even the analogue version of the track from the *same* LD) will sound better, the obvious downsides of analogue playback notwithstanding. In the case of THE SHINING in particular that may not necessarily hold true, as the 1991 US LaserDisc that has already been captured and examined in some detail seems to sound *more* fiddled with than the DVD counterpart, for whatever reason, but I don't believe every single LaserDisc release of this film has been checked yet. I keep considering grabbing a different copy or two to compare, but THE SHINING isn't really one of my favourites so I have a lot of other priorities to look at first. (I loved the book but I share the same fundamental issues with the film that Stephen King has with it, which mostly has to do with the casting of Jack Nicholson and the resulting collapse of the book's character arc for the protagonist.)

In terms of what's been checked and what hasn't (to my knowledge at least)...

• The 1991 US LD does have digital PCM audio but it appears to be slightly more "muffled" (high frequencies knocked out to reduce analogue magnetic tape hiss, thus ruining the sonic characteristics of the recording and reducing high-end detail). Note: it doesn't actually mention having PCM / digital sound anywhere on the packaging, and yet it does have it on the disc.
  
  
• I haven't heard the 1981 US analogue-only LD that you say you have ordered but if it is from 1981 as you say then it won't have CX noise reduction on it and due to age may not be in great shape so might not be that useful/necessary. But actually, I can't even find anything about a 1981 LD, so I suspect the one you've got on the way (or already in your possession) is not from 1981 at all but much later. As far as I'm aware, there only ever was one US release, and it does have the PCM but seems not to be one of those cases where it sounds better than the DVD, as described above. If you can check the packaging for a catalogue number of some sort (e.g. 11079 A/B, which is the 1991 US LD with unadvertised PCM) we might be able to clarify that.
  
  
• There's a later 1988 Japanese LD which is supposedly also analogue-only but is slightly more likely to have CX, but doesn't mention that on the packaging if it does. Equally, it is *possible* that it might have digital PCM and just not say so, because the 1991 US LD doesn't mention digital sound anywhere on its packaging but it does have it on the disc (Warner has done this with other films as well, e.g. TWILIGHT ZONE: THE MOVIE).
  
  
• The one I'm most interested to capture is the very late 1998 JP LD which definitely has digital PCM mono, and given its proximity to the first US DVD release, I'm hoping this would be the best bet for a lossless capture of the original mono in high quality PCM. The trouble is, it doesn't show up as often and it's fairly expensive for what it is; I can't see any copies in Europe either and I'm not spending more than $40 on the item plus a massive amount on top of that for shipping and Customs charges (VAT + handling) when it's not even a film I'm all that fussed about really. The DVD audio is probably "good enough" for the time being but if it ever becomes more affordable to grab a copy of the 1998 JP LD I'll almost certainly do that.
  

It's possible that your player might have coax SPDIF output for PCM instead of TOSLINK but it might be that you've hit upon part of the reason it was cheap: if there's no digital output of any kind then it's probably an old and/or "budget" model that's tricker to sell because its usefulness is limited. But in some cases older players are great for specific tasks.

[LaurentLaSalle]

Nah, my LaserDisc isn't from America; it's a japanese release. Of course, it will have japanese subtitles burned on the image, but as I said, I bought this disc more for the memorabilia than anything else.

If I end up being able to capture it, I could mix it with a DVD grab of the open matte (since I suspect cropping discrepancies). Contrary to my audio knowledge, my video knowledge is far superior, so yes, color correcting will be required, and it's a task I am most comfortable with.

The reason why I thought it was a 1981 release was because the copyright for its "package design" is of this date. It turns out that this edition, catalog 10JL-1079, was commercialized in 1985 : https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/35511/10J...hining-The

According to LaserDisc Database, it has indeed an analog mono track, nothing else.

Something else I forgot about Japan was its censorship. So I should expect "optical blurring of female genitals" during the bathroom scene. At least the closing credits are apparently blue, which is the same as its original theatrical release. Pretty sure this means I will also get the black, white and red Warner Bros logo designed by Saul Bass back in 1972.

[pipefan413]

Nah, my LaserDisc isn't from America; it's a japanese release. Of course, it will have japanese subtitles burned on the image, but as I said, I bought this disc more for the memorabilia than anything else.

If I end up being able to capture it, I could mix it with a DVD grab of the open matte (since I suspect cropping discrepancies). Contrary to my audio knowledge, my video knowledge is far superior, so yes, color correcting will be required, and it's a task I am most comfortable with.

The reason why I thought it was a 1981 release was because the copyright for its "package design" is of this date. It turns out that this edition, catalog 10JL-1079, was commercialized in 1985 : https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/35511/10J...hining-The

According to LaserDisc Database, it has indeed an analog mono track, nothing else.

LDDB is a blessing and a marvellous resource but it is wrong far more often than I initially realised. However, I'm actually confident that it probably is correct in this case. Firstly, 1985 is mighty early for PCM, I've never seen one with my own eyes earlier than 1986, though that doesn't mean there are none before that. Besides that, that disc is what the later 1988 JP release is reissuing, and the 1988 one will just be a straight reissue of the exact same disc because that's what the "Ever Green" / "Evergreen" line does. I have more than one of them and there is zero difference between original and reissue with those. So yeah, the 1988 won't have PCM either; I was forgetting that previously when I was saying there was a slim chance it might. I'd put money on it being analogue-only, just as LDDB says, based on nothing other than it being an Ever Green release.

Something else I forgot about Japan was its censorship. So I should expect "optical blurring of female genitals" during the bathroom scene. At least the closing credits are apparently blue, which is the same as its original theatrical release. Pretty sure this means I will also get the black, white and red Warner Bros logo designed by Saul Bass back in 1972.

It'll almost certainly be the Saul Bass logo, which even the DVD has. And aye, hahah, Japan is fine with gore but a muff is a big no-no...

[SpaceBlackKnight]

LaurentLaSalle, if you need HD sources for that Warner logo in 4:3 I can help. Do PM me.

[TheHutt]

Now that's quite interesting.
Right now, I am also working on The Shining, restoring the German version (localized credits, intertitles and German typewriter sequence).

What I definitely would be interested in, is the English mono audio for the International cut. And yes, the red-black-white WB logo.

[pipefan413]

Now that's quite interesting.
Right now, I am also working on The Shining, restoring the German version (localized credits, intertitles and German typewriter sequence).

What I definitely would be interested in, is the English mono audio for the International cut. And yes, the red-black-white WB logo.

The best source, in my opinion, for the Saul Bass Warner logo for THE SHINING in particular is probably the not-very-good Hammer film THE SATANIC RITES OF DRACULA, which has the correct logo in pretty good quality in 1.78:1. It jiggles a bit from gate weave, but personally I have no issue with that because gate weave just makes it clear that it's from a film source, and because of the headroom at the top and bottom you could stabilise it if you really wanted. I posted about it here: https://fanrestore.com/thread-1914-post-...l#pid64326

However, that's for widescreen. I don't know what the best 4:3 option would be in HD, since cropping the 1.78:1 would mean it's cropped in more than it should be on the top and bottom.

As for the mono, the international cut can be recreated by just cutting down the audio from the longer US cut, so there's no need for unique sources and I'm not sure they even exist (well, there's maybe VHS, but I don't seem to remember there being a mono DVD for that cut). Others have already captured the US LD, but it may not necessarily be as good as the first US DVD (despite the latter being compressed, it's less messed with pre-compression and it's mono anyway so you don't lose as much off the top end by compressing to AC-3 as you might with a Dolby-recorded track). I keep toying with the idea of capturing the late Japanese LaserDisc's PCM but I can't really afford to do so just now; if somebody wants to throw the cash at me to grab and capture it, then they're more than welcome to do so.

[TheHutt]

Okay. I should have the first US BD there.

As for the WB logo, as far as WS is concerned, I do have the 1.66:1 version from Criterion's Barry Lyndon BR. I might use that.