Mulan (1998) DVD/LD audio request

[pipefan413]

I'd like to try to clarify things a tad here because there's a bit of to-and-fro happening. Here's what I think I know so far, some of which is muddy.

1. The original Limited Issue and Gold Classic Collection US DVDs, and first UK DVD, all have 35 mm picture and 448 kbps Dolby Digital AC-3 5.1 theatrical audio.

2. The Special Edition DVD was advertised initially as having an enhanced remix but this was pulled from the marketing and it sounds front-heavy, suggesting theatrical (surrounds often not used very heavily in discrete mixes of that time). However, @SpaceBlackKnight reckons it's still a remix to a certain extent, maybe just in terms of the relative levels of the channels or maybe in terms of the mixing itself?

3. The HDTV capture also has a 448 kbps Dolby Digital AC-3 5.1 track but I haven't yet attempted to check if it's identical to one or more DVD tracks. Picture is from a different 35 mm source for whatever reason.

4. If iTunes Spain once had a version based on the same 35 mm master as the HDTV version, I think it might have since been replaced by the digital master because the trailer looks grainless and the only English audio listed is stereo, no explicit mention of 5.1.

5. The Blu-rays probably have a lossless encode of the possibly remixed SE DVD audio which, as above, may or may not be theatrically accurate.

Is that fair? I'd like to get some clarity on whether the SE DVD and/or Blu-ray mixes actually are "correct" (in theatrical terms) but I don't really have a good setup to test that on, no 5.1 hooked up to a computer or whatever. If anybody has the SE DVD (it's the only one I don't have) I'd be curious to hear it, though I'm guessing it's likely equivalent to the Blu-ray but lossy.

EDIT: Checked, HDTV 5.1 448 kbps not identical to Limited Issue DVD, though it could be based on it (which might mean re-encoding). However, having just seen the AC-3 track off the R3 DVD thanks to @NeonBible, I think it might be that, or some version of it (which apparently is equivalent to the SE DVD?). I'm curious what the difference in the end credits music is between versions but I so far haven't spotted any difference between the first US ("Limited Issue") DVD, first UK DVD (PAL speedup aside), WOWOW HDTV, or R3 DVD in the credits music. @SpaceBlackKnight mentioned it was different on the SE DVD and Blu-ray; I don't have the US/UK SE DVDs (they're just about the only ones I don't have at this point I think) but I do have both the US and UK Blu-rays so I'll check those next.

[pipefan413]

Right, so looking at the spectrograms, the audio in the HDTV capture, 2004 HK DVD, and US SE DVD are functionally identical. They are all different from the original US Limited Issue DVD to some extent.

1999 US Limited Issue DVD:


2000 GB DVD:


(slowed down in eac3to):


2004 US Special Edition DVD:


2004 HK Special Edition DVD:


2010 JP WOWOW HDTV capture:


However, I'm not spotting this difference in the end credits music. Can anybody point to what that difference actually is? @SpaceBlackKnight maybe? Listening on L+R speakers rather than headphones or 5.1 setup which might be the problem.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

As for the end credits music difference, I just realized it may have been the Russian or foreign dubs that had that change. I re-watched the BD and snippets from the DVDs again and they're all the same on the English tracks.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

If iTunes Spain once had a version based on the same 35 mm master as the HDTV version, I think it might have since been replaced by the digital master because the trailer looks grainless and the only English audio listed is stereo, no explicit mention of 5.1.

I just checked it on iTunes Spain. The trailer is still grainy 35mm based at 1.85 AR and PAL sped up. However, I noticed the feature now lists 4k DV/Atmouse, so they probably just got around to upgrading the transfer out to the 4k HDR digital one while strangely still keeping the trailer for the old 25fps 35mm master.

[pipefan413]

If iTunes Spain once had a version based on the same 35 mm master as the HDTV version, I think it might have since been replaced by the digital master because the trailer looks grainless and the only English audio listed is stereo, no explicit mention of 5.1.

I just checked it on iTunes Spain. The trailer is still grainy 35mm based at 1.85 AR and PAL sped up. However, I noticed the feature now lists 4k DV/Atmouse, so they probably just got around to upgrading the transfer out to the 4k HDR digital one while strangely still keeping the trailer for the old 25fps 35mm master.

Odd, the trailer I watched definitely looked as clean as the Blu-ray but maybe it's a different version or just extremely compressed on mobile and that's why hahah. But aye, looks like it got replaced. Bums.

[pipefan413]

If iTunes Spain once had a version based on the same 35 mm master as the HDTV version, I think it might have since been replaced by the digital master because the trailer looks grainless and the only English audio listed is stereo, no explicit mention of 5.1.

I just checked it on iTunes Spain. The trailer is still grainy 35mm based at 1.85 AR and PAL sped up. However, I noticed the feature now lists 4k DV/Atmouse, so they probably just got around to upgrading the transfer out to the 4k HDR digital one while strangely still keeping the trailer for the old 25fps 35mm master.

Yeah, so I just checked on desktop and the trailer on Spanish iTunes definitely isn't 1.85:1 or grainy, so I dunno what's happening there! Look:

[SpaceBlackKnight]

The trailers on browsers tend to be different than the ones opened up on the iTunes app.

This is what shows on my iTunes app in the Spain store:



And the trailer that plays within the app:

[pipefan413]

The trailers on browsers tend to be different than the ones opened up on the iTunes app.

This is what shows on my iTunes app in the Spain store:



And the trailer that plays within the app:

That makes sense. I haven't had iTunes installed on any of my devices for a very long time because I am a Grumpy Old Man who loathes Apple and iTunes in particular more than I care to admit, because of how much of a Grumpy Old Man it makes me seem.

Right so here's where we seem to have got to, unless I've got any of this wrong...

1998: 6-track theatrical mix in DTS (882 kbps), Dolby Digital (320 kbps), and SDDS; 2-track "legacy" Dolby Stereo on analogue optical tracks.

1999: 5.1 theatrical mix as 448 kbps Dolby AC-3 on US Limited Issue DVD.

2000: 5.1 mix on GB DVD (PAL, so sped up ~4%) is quite possibly also the theatrical mix but less desirable due to it needing to be resampled.

2004: slightly different 448 kbps AC-3 5.1 track on Special Edition DVDs (US, GB, HK...) originally marketed as "Disney Enhanced Home Theatre" remix but this was pulled from materials before release, so this may still be a version of the theatrical mix (though maybe not exactly the same, since it appears to have slightly different frequency characteristics based on spectrograms). If I understand @SpaceBlackKnight correctly then this may include some additional "sweetening" of sound effects etc. which are non-theatrical, unless this didn't happen until the Blu-ray later on (but it would not surprise me if it did happen here since this was a new digital master).

2013: lossless DTS-HD MA 5.1 mix on Blu-ray Disc releases, which either for the first time or possibly the second after the 2004 DVDs, includes some altered/added sound effects and possibly other changes. US Blu-ray also has a 2.0 track that I haven't yet investigated in any detail, but I'm sort of hoping might be the theatrical Dolby Stereo, however unlikely that may be.

The bit about differing end credits music seems to have been a miscommunication/misremembering of different music in one or more foreign language dubs (I sat for quite a while today comparing the end credits on all the DVDs and the Blu-ray and hearing no meaningful differences, hahaha).

Have I got that basically right so far? I think the next move is checking for those minor effects differences in the SE DVD and Blu-ray (and maybe GB DVD) to determine when they first appeared. I'm guessing it probably is indeed the SE DVD (the audio certainly looks different on the spectrogram) but could equally be Blu-ray.

EDIT: I um... I could be wrong, but I'm actually starting to think that the 2004 SE DVD could be *more* correct than the 1999 Limited Issue one, for the audio side of things. It appears to have greater dynamic range, for one, and there are moments where the 2004 track goes into a big crescendo but the level on the 1999 one stays about the same and you can hear background sounds like music getting quieter whereas on the 2004 one they stay about the same and other sounds get louder. Stuff like that. And in fact, I think the most spot-on one is actually the Blu-ray version! That said, I'm not noticing any changes to effects in the fireworks scene, so if somebody might point me more specifically in the right direction (timestamp, description?) I'll see if I can get to the bottom of that. As it stands, I'm surprised to find myself leaning toward the Blu-ray here.

[Doctor M]

I was thinking, since the SE DVD is a direct copy from the CAPS system versus the previous DVD, which was from a film print, there could be audio limitation from the audio being transferred to whatever medium went with the film print versus a direct digital dub.

[pipefan413]

I was thinking, since the SE DVD is a direct copy from the CAPS system versus the previous DVD, which was from a film print, there could be audio limitation from the audio being transferred to whatever medium went with the film print versus a direct digital dub.

Sure, that's entirely possible; but as far as I knew neither (cinema) DTS nor (cinema) Dolby Digital had particularly limited dynamic range, so it seems more like limiting it to avoid angry neighbours or something. Maybe it helps with compressing to Dolby Digital if the dynamic range is reduced. To be fair, I do sometimes get irritated by modern home mixes having far too much dynamic range so you end up with either having to manually turn the volume up to hear dialogue then back down again when something loud happens, or having to enable some kind of real-time compressor on the hardware/software you're playing it on. But I don't think the dynamic range of the Mulan Blu-ray track is excessive in that way.

If @SpaceBlackKnight or anyone else can give me a more specific idea of where to look/listen for added/sweetened sounds in the Blu-ray and/or 2004 DVD audio, I'd be very grateful. I haven't spotted any so far, even checking the fireworks bit. I even went channel by channel and couldn't see a meaningful difference.