(2024-06-08, 06:47 AM)PDB Wrote: I think it’s safe to say at this point that Paramount is at best hit or miss at the 4k game.

I did an upscale of the Italian extended dvd some years ago. I have to see if I can dig it out or at least redo it.

So that best solution seems to be sticking to the old BD? If I did an upscale of that BD to 4k what changes would need to be made? I know the rising has to be removed. But is the ending just a matter of the music or is it the title coming in at the wrong time?

That would be fantastic especially converted to non pal speed to help reconstruct the ending as the German print has some missing frames.
The 2011 bd is the best option because the 4k master is so overprocessed but the new BD is better than the UHD visually in areas because it has proper encoding but the same baked in crap.

The opening footage can be replaced back into the film which I’ve already done a version of but the best overall method would be to sync the 1994 LD mono, reinstate the opening footage with the German print pieces, and the ending would switch over to the German mono to keep the mono mix with correct music and the correct end title placement though it’s the German version. The Italian and paramount master can be used to patch in the missing frames but you’d have to use the soundtrack cue for the complete music as both of those have the bad edit. Then you have to place the full cue of the exit music after the paramount logo. Both soundtrack cues have to be level matched and folded to mono.

We don’t have any version of the original US credits, which didn’t have the spinning logo and are supposed to look just like the German and Italian versions in terms of having the title come up there and then disappear.

I’ve been playing with this trying to include a reconstructed version of the opening and closing for the end of my documentary. I added a section where I discussed the Italian DVD having additional fragments so if possible I’d like to include the bits and bobs hopefully without speed up.

I'm wondering if with the information we have from VW etc. we could at some point reconstruct the american edit?
It's still missing in action. I know it was a butcher job, but nonetheless, it's historic.

(2024-06-11, 10:35 PM)captainsolo Wrote:

(2024-06-08, 06:47 AM)PDB Wrote: I think it’s safe to say at this point that Paramount is at best hit or miss at the 4k game.

I did an upscale of the Italian extended dvd some years ago. I have to see if I can dig it out or at least redo it.

So that best solution seems to be sticking to the old BD? If I did an upscale of that BD to 4k what changes would need to be made? I know the rising has to be removed. But is the ending just a matter of the music or is it the title coming in at the wrong time?

That would be fantastic especially converted to non pal speed to help reconstruct the ending as the German print has some missing frames.
The 2011 bd is the best option because the 4k master is so overprocessed but the new BD is better than the UHD visually in areas because it has proper encoding but the same baked in crap.

The opening footage can be replaced back into the film which I’ve already done a version of but the best overall method would be to sync the 1994 LD mono, reinstate the opening footage with the German print pieces, and the ending would switch over to the German mono to keep the mono mix with correct music and the correct end title placement though it’s the German version. The Italian and paramount master can be used to patch in the missing frames but you’d have to use the soundtrack cue for the complete music as both of those have the bad edit. Then you have to place the full cue of the exit music after the paramount logo. Both soundtrack cues have to be level matched and folded to mono.

We don’t have any version of the original US credits, which didn’t have the spinning logo and are supposed to look just like the German and Italian versions in terms of having the title come up there and then disappear.

I’ve been playing with this trying to include a reconstructed version of the opening and closing for the end of my documentary. I added a section where I discussed the Italian DVD having additional fragments so if possible I’d like to include the bits and bobs hopefully without speed up.

Great video as always

(2024-06-12, 09:46 AM)Stamper Wrote: I'm wondering if with the information we have from VW etc. we could at some point reconstruct the american edit?
It's still missing in action. I know it was a butcher job, but nonetheless, it's historic.

True. In my docu video about the edits I highlight each of the the edits and I’m trying to show over some of my narration what they would’ve been like. For example, when I’m talking about the screwed up ending, I removed the shot of harmonica leading the horses up the hill so I re-created that cut, but I couldn’t figure exactly where the freeze frame was employed. I assumed it was at the longshot just before the spinning title comes in.
Our major problem in trying to reconstruct any version of the original US ending is that we don’t have a version of the original titles without the spinning logo and only have a description of the original US title appearing at the same spot where it does in foreign prints.

It would be miraculous if one of those original fully uncut 1968 dye transfer prints showed up and had escaped being manually cut by Paramount.

It's crazy to think we are finally going to get Peckinpah Pat Garett original theatical on UHD, but no one has thought of releasing a Leone Once Upon set with all the different edits (to put it neatly, the european cut and the US butchered cut).

I’ve been working on this documentary, but I just saw a mention somewhere on a forum saying that the Italian Blu-ray in the Italian mono actually does end with the correct music… So now I have to try and find a version of that.
Does anyone here have either the original or reissue Italian Blu-ray to confirm if the Italian mono has the correct ending music?

(2024-05-22, 08:33 PM)captainsolo Wrote: I’m currently looking at all my audio captures. Some later “monos” may be a downmix or have been processed so much they sound different. The difference is staggering in areas when you compare the pan n scan LD analog and LD pcm remaster with the dvd, bd and UHD.

The monos from the DVD era onwards are indeed partial remixes, but only of the scenes/shots that were edited out of the 145-min cut. These bits on the LDs sound quite bad/muffled compared to the rest of the film, which sounds pristine.

captainsolo Wrote:reinstate the opening footage with the German print pieces, and the ending would switch over to the German mono to keep the mono mix with correct music and the correct end title placement though it’s the German version.

Keen to know more about this version! Is it available? Any chance of screenshots?

Restoration of the original ending:

https://youtu.be/mhoPspV5fRM

(2024-07-18, 03:30 AM)TheLoon Wrote: Restoration of the original ending:

https://youtu.be/mhoPspV5fRM

I already saw this on YouTube and commented but holy crap that’s fantastic! How did you manage to deal with the title placement and getting rid of the spinning title? I’ve done my own reconstruction with a bunch of different sources, but I had to mix and match to try and get around the spinning title and jump back-and-forth between the 2011 Blu-ray and raw frames of the German version plus use the laser disc mono and my own mono fold down of the soundtrack cues.
I’ve made a whole documentary about the release history and edits, which has my reconstruction of the opening and closing, but I was waiting on a copy of the Italian Blu-ray to get here. Supposedly the Italian mono on that disc has the correct music and thus would have the sound effects and everything at the right level. I couldn’t get around that by having to mix multiple different audio sources but I managed to get it pretty decent.
This is my latest attempt:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fi2dXyf...p=drivesdk

(2024-07-24, 03:18 AM)captainsolo Wrote: I already saw this on YouTube and commented but holy crap that’s fantastic! How did you manage to deal with the title placement and getting rid of the spinning title? I’ve done my own reconstruction with a bunch of different sources, but I had to mix and match to try and get around the spinning title and jump back-and-forth between the 2011 Blu-ray and raw frames of the German version plus use the laser disc mono and my own mono fold down of the soundtrack cues.
I’ve made a whole documentary about the release history and edits, which has my reconstruction of the opening and closing, but I was waiting on a copy of the Italian Blu-ray to get here. Supposedly the Italian mono on that disc has the correct music and thus would have the sound effects and everything at the right level. I couldn’t get around that by having to mix multiple different audio sources but I managed to get it pretty decent.
This is my latest attempt:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fi2dXyf...p=drivesdk

Thanks! Enjoy watching your YT channel very much - your videos on OUATITW were actually an inspiration on tackling this, plus frustration at the botched UHD of course. Great to see those German credits in your source!

This was done by basically cobbling together the following sources:
- The old Paramount Blu-ray
- Italian CVC DVD
- Paramount laserdisc (digital audio version)
- Odd Couple Blu-ray ('68 Paramount logo)
- Ennio Morricone Anthology - Rhino CD (Cheyenne's theme)

All colour-corrected/EQ'd etc. to match. The BD and DVD video gradually dissolve back and forth to avoid jarring cuts. The DVD transfer had dozens of horrible digital clean-up errors, most of which I removed.

The credits are a digital re-creation. The info on placement/timing/style of the original credits came from Steven Lloyd's excellent 2004 article "Once is Not Enough" for Video Watchdog that went into great detail on this.

I'm aiming to expand it to a full restoration, probably in a year or so (work is crazy at the mo).