[In progress] True Lies - open matte, film regraded

[Beber]

I'll watch that tonight, after my annual mandatory watching of Groundhog Day. I have finished my French subs, so I'll apply them onto it and see what's what.

[Beber]

OK, just watched it. Well, I'm sorry to say that, to me, it's a "meh" result. I'm disappointed. Maybe I misunderstood what you were aiming. I was expecting a regrade that wouldn't destroy definition, detail, etc., kind of what PDB is trying to achieve with Die Hard with a Vengeance. The blown out whites are not even the main issue to my eyes, it's the lack of true blacks. There is none. I've wached it on an OLED TV, and the supposedly black screens (title credits, fades to black), black areas, shadows are all grey and reveal a significant amount of navy blue artifacts (Helen's dress in the limo when she tries to reach Harry, for instance, and that happens under daylight) that make basically the whole movie unwatchable that way. The best looking part is the Harrier climax around the crane and that's because it's under daylight. The worst part is the beginning of the final ballroom scene, the very part that was missing in the 35mm scan: it's totally blown and has no detail like Predator UHE, even worse. Maybe what I'm noticing is an inherent vice of the method used to apply colors from one source to another as I noticed some similar issues in Alien Fundamental Collection. I think what needs to be done is a shot-by-shot color correction using the 35mm scan as a reference.

Also, what happened to the idea of erasing the burnt-in English subtitles using the subfree 1HD broadcasting?

[spoRv]

Thanks for the feedbacks; they are always appreciated when constructive.

First of all, beware, this is not an answer dictated by the spirit of "I did a good job, I'm right and you are wrong blah blah blah"; even if it's my own work, I know it's not perfect, so I'll try to be as objective as possible, even if I must admit there could be some (unwanted) bias.

...it's the lack of true blacks. There is none. I've wached it on an OLED TV, and the supposedly black screens (title credits, fades to black), black areas, shadows are all grey and reveal a significant amount of navy blue artifacts (Helen's dress in the limo when she tries to reach Harry, for instance, and that happens under daylight) that make basically the whole movie unwatchable that way.

Now, there are many variables to take in account here:

1. you have watched an HEVC encoded version at low bitrate, where the lossless version (and, hopefully, an high bitrate AVC one) has the grain plate intact; this could regrade somehow the whole image, but I deleted the encoded file (silly me) so I can't do a direct A/B comparison right now (but ready to download my own uploaded file and do that, eventually).
   
2. we are using two inherently different displays - I have a full LED backlit LCD, where you have an OLED; each one has its own pros and cons, still one picture that looks perfect on mine could be less perfect on yours, and vice versa
   
3. mine is calibrated - not with a probe, but using test patterns; I know it's not the best way to achieve perfect (as much a display can permit) colors, but, as the delta errors of my hdtv were quite low even when uncalibrated, I'm pretty confident this calibration is good enough; I don't know if yours is calibrated
   
4. I have a perfect color vision - according to this test: http://www.xritephoto.com/cool-tools - using this very same hdtv after calibration; I don't know about you
   
5. aim of the project is mainly to regrade the movie using the film scan as color reference
   

said so, I can say there is a tendence to blue, and it's caused by me, to get rid of the slight magenta blanket; IMHO is not that noticeable, and, if so, it's a small price to pay, to have better skin hues. But defining the blacks "greys", it is a bit too exagerated... are black opening credits RGB #000000? No. Are they blacker than black? No. Are they grey? Absolutely not! If you have, as I do, a display who is capable of reproducing a pitch black (read: 0 nits at total black screen), and you have a good eye (as I'm pretty sure you have), and you are in a totally dark room, you can say it's not a pitch black screen. But defining it "grey" is a bit unfair.

Download these two images, watch and compare them full screen, and, as you will see, filmscan black is pretty grey in comparison, but I would define it not grey, but "light black" instead!
https://s14.postimg.cc/d0p8tdfg1/True_Li..._black.jpg
https://s14.postimg.cc/3sx0co0o1/True_Lies_FS_black.jpg

Artefacts: I'm aware there could be some instances of them, but I've noticed them only in an handful occasions, and IMHO those does not render the whole film unwatchable; Helen's dress seems pretty black to me, even if you can pick up a spot on it, and would note that is not blue navy, but actually magenta (something like #030004 more or less)

The worst part is the beginning of the final ballroom scene, the very part that was missing in the 35mm scan: it's totally blown and has no detail like Predator UHE, even worse.

Agree! To let the colors to be closer to previous and next parts as mush as possible, I regraded the missing part (in the film scan) by hand, without reference, so yes, light details are lost there.

Maybe what I'm noticing is an inherent vice of the method used to apply colors from one source to another as I noticed some similar issues in Alien Fundamental Collection.

You are right. Do you know why it happened here, and in Alien? Because the source and the reference sizes are different! Here we have a 2.35:1 Vs 1.78:1, a HUGE difference in size, so matching the colors perfectly would be impossible (AFAIK, and now); in the case of Alien, the source was the D-Theater, with a bigger frame than laserdisc used as color reference.

I think what needs to be done is a shot-by-shot color correction using the 35mm scan as a reference.

I know! But I will not do it! Still, I can try to use the OM original luma, and FC chroma, and modify the contrast to be similar to film scan as much as possible, brightening the famous pool scene, and possibly getting a pitch black... black (but, again, I'm pretty happy with "that" black!); I can eventually make a step back to the de-magenta setting to lower blue steering (but, again, pretty happy with overall color grading!)

Also, what happened to the idea of erasing the burnt-in English subtitles using the subfree 1HD broadcasting?

The "workprint" was made before the actual discover; probably I'll do it for the final version, but first let's solve the "color grading affaire"!

[Beber]

SpoRV : you have watched an HEVC encoded version at low bitrate, where the lossless version has the grain plate intact; this could regrade somehow the whole image

Then what's the point in making these workprints for feedbacks if they don't reflect the actual look of the video you're the only one seeing at the moment?

SpoRv : we are using two inherently different displays - mine is calibrated - not with a probe, but using test patterns; I'm pretty confident this calibration is good enough; I don't know if yours is calibrated

The point of OLED is to have deep blacks. It is so satisfying to watch cinemascope movies with actual black bars and not grey ones. My TV is not probe-calibrated either but is following indications read on boards that critic just the model of TV I bought, with people sharing their settings, including some who have made their own copy of said TV calibrated by professionals. So I'm quite sure my TV settings look just fine. When watching other movies, I don't notice the stuff I noticed on this workprint.

Sporv : I have a perfect color vision ; I don't know about you

As far as I know, I'm not color blind either. I don't wear glasses, I can see just fine.

SpoRv : I can say there is a tendence to blue, and it's caused by me, to get rid of the slight magenta blanket; IMHO is not that noticeable, and, if so, it's a small price to pay, to have better skin hues. But defining the blacks "greys", it is a bit too exagerated... are black opening credits RGB #000000? No. Are they blacker than black? No. Are they grey? Absolutely not! If you have, as I do, a display who is capable of reproducing a pitch black (read: 0 nits at total black screen), and you have a good eye (as I'm pretty sure you have), and you are in a totally dark room, you can say it's not a pitch black screen. But defining it "grey" is a bit unfair.


If it's not black, then it's grey. Not the lighter grey it could be, sure, so "dark grey" if that suits you better, but not black. And in the example just above, it is quite grey.

Sporv : Artefacts: I'm aware there could be some instances of them, but I've noticed them only in an handful occasions, and IMHO those does not render the whole film unwatchable







Not that noticeable blue artefacts? It's worse in motion and it's all over the place, from the Fox fanfare 'till the end.

Sporv :  Agree! To let the colors to be closer to previous and next parts as mush as possible, I regraded the missing part (in the film scan) by hand, without reference, so yes, light details are lost there.




Light details are lost? There's actually nothing left. It looks as if the picture was covered with vaseline. And then...



Sporv : The "workprint" was made before the actual discovery (of the subfree video) probably I'll do it for the final version, but first let's solve the "color grading affaire"!

Oh, okay. 'Cause I've worked on the French ones not to replicate the so badly made original time-codes, so if they are to stay, I must change the French ones to be perfectly in sync with the original botched job, 'cause it really bothers me when 2 sets of subtitles are not perfectly in sync with each other.

Look, I'm sorry if you feel hurt by my comments. It's just that I was so excited by the promise that I even wanted to be a part of it, providing audio track and working on subs. I was so excited by the little stills you showed us before, those that panned the whole movie with the before/after comparison, that my disappointment when finally seeing it in motion is just as big as my excitement was. With the movie looking like that, I know I won't make it my go-to version. If other people get a kick out of it, good for them. I just don't.

[spoRv]

Not felt hurt, no problems! We are here for feedbacks, opinions, ideas, and if a newer, better version would be made, it will be also thanks to you!

[Valeyard]

Is there a missing scene in the scan? I hadn't noticed.

[spoRv]

Is there a missing scene in the scan? I hadn't noticed.

No, just some shots inside the final ballroom scene - about 280 frames are missing.

[Valeyard]

Entire shots? 11 seconds? Is the theatrical version different to the Bluray then?

[spoRv]

Nope, just missing frames inside the scene - one or two shots, can't remember.

[Beber]

SpoRv, I see on Blutopia that a guy, using Dr. Dre tools to come up with a "3D LUT" as he calls it, managed to apply the HDDVD colors of 1999 The Mummy to the brand new UHD master. So, 2 different masters, most likely different in framing and obviously definition, the old one plagued with edge enhancement and not the new one. I watched it here and there, and have not noticed color artefacts. I don't know if this is the same method you used here, but if it's not, you might want to look into that for a better rendering of True Lies. Just a thought.