4K UHD - Alternative audio thread

[BDgeek]

This thread is intended to list all the alternate audio tracks synced to the 4K UHD release, specially original audio mixes, in order to obtain what could be called Definitive Archival Versions.

Please contribute with projects and information! Thanks!

Note: in the standard 23.976fps, 1 frame = 41.71‬ms (1000ms / 23.976)

Movie name (release year)
Track Specs (status)  -  Source  -  Rip / Sync Credits
Comments

Aladdin (2019)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 (original mix)  -  2019 Worldwide Disney UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 7.1 48/24 (original mix; in sync)  -  2019 Worldwide Disney BD  -  BDgeek
Similar Dynamic Range and volume levels

Doctor Strange (2016)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 - 2019 Worldwide Disney UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 7.1 (delay -292) - 2016 US Disney BD - Turisu
Compressed Dynamic Range and lower volume levels on the UHD Atmos track

Dumbo (2019)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 (original mix)  -  2019 Worldwide Disney UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 7.1 48/24 (original mix; in sync)  -  2019 Worldwide Disney BD  -  BDgeek
Tracks have similar Dynamic Range and volume levels

Hulk (2003)
DTS-HD MA 7.1-X 48/24 (remix)  -  2019 Worldwide Universal UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 5.1 48/24 (original mix; delay -167)  -  2008 Worldwide Universal BD  -  BDgeek

Iron Man (2008)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 (remix)  -  2019 Worldwide Disney UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 7.1 48/24 (original mix; delay -1960ms)  -  2008 Worldwide Paramount & 2013 Worldwide Disney BDs  -  Turisu
Compressed Dynamic Range and lower volume levels on the UHD Atmos track

Superman: The Movie (1978)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 (remix)  -  2018 Worldwide Warner UHD-BD
DD 5.1 640kbps (70mm split surround original mix)  -  2018 Worldwide Warner UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 5.1 48/24 (remix; in sync)  -  2011 Worldwide Warner 'The Motion Picture Anthology 1978-2006' BD  -  BDgeek
DTS-HD MA 2.0 48/24 (35mm original mix; in sync)  -  2011 Worldwide Warner 'The Motion Picture Anthology 1978-2006' BD  -  BDgeek
PCM 2.0 48/16 (upsampled form 44.1/16; 70mm mono surround original mix; in sync)  -  1995 Japan Warner LD [NJWL-01013]  -  Booshman

The Avengers (2012)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 (remix)  -  2018 Worldwide Disney UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 7.1 48/24 (original mix; delay +810)  -  2012 Worldwide Disney BD  -  BDgeek
Compressed Dynamic Range and lower volume levels on the UHD Atmos track

The Incredible Hulk (2008)
DTS-HD MA 7.1-X 48/24 (remix)  -  2018 Worldwide Universal UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 5.1 48/24 (original mix; in sync)  -  2008 International Universal BD (non-NA)  -  BDgeek

Thor (2011)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 (remix)  -  2019 Worldwide Disney UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 7.1 48/24 (original mix; delay -500ms)  -  2011 Worldwide Paramount & 2013 Worldwide Disney BDs  -  Turisu
Compressed Dynamic Range and lower volume levels on the UHD Atmos track

Thor: The Dark World (2013)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 (original mix)  -  2019 Worldwide Disney UHD-BD
DTS-HD MA 7.1 48/24 (original mix; in sync)  -  2014 Worldwide Disney BD  -  Turisu

[BDgeek]

To start out the list, I'd like to present my first finished (should I dare say?) projects:

Hulk (2003); The Incredible Hulk (2008); The Avengers (2012)

I humbly say projects, because there was not much work done, it was just ripping and getting them to sync at the start. Otherwise, they line up fine.

My intention here was the restore the original audio tracks for these awesome UHDs:

Hulk (2003), even though it can be said is not a great movie, has received a fantastic 4K presentation that puts all previous versions to shame and made me gain new appreciation for it. Just one of the best catalog 35mm put to UHD yet (along with Batman & Robin ).

The Incredible Hulk (2008) was also a movie I considered not worthy of my personal collection, but gained new appreciation in this 4K release. The HDR on this one is a bit tricky so I had to ajust my settings increasing the gamma on my display and lowering overall brightness in order to avoid some black crushing. Other than that, the presentation is beautiful with excelent grain structure. Of the 4 MCU movies shot on film, this is the only one not affected by DNR.

The Avengers (2012) was a favorite from the get go (who didn't enjoy it at least the first time around? ) and the UHD HDR has just given it a new life.

[Turisu]

This thread is a great idea. Here's a contribution:

Doctor Strange (2016)
Dolby Atmos 7.1 - 2019 UHD-BD - Typical Disney neutered Atmos track
DTS-HD MA 7.1 (syncs with a delay of -292) - 2017 BD

[Turisu]

The Avengers (2012)
DTHD 7.1-Atmos 48/24 (remix)  -  2018 Worldwide Disney UHD-BD  -  Compressed dynamic range and lower levels
DTS-HD MA 7.1 48/24 (original mix; delay +810)  -  2012 Worldwide Disney BD  -  BDgeek

Are you certain that the delay here is correct? Comparing the timecodes of several corresponding frames in the BD and UHD video streams I have shows a difference of 19 frames which would make for a delay of +792ms.

[BDgeek]

This thread is a great idea. Here's a contribution:

Doctor Strange (2016)
Dolby Atmos 7.1 - 2019 UHD-BD - Typical Disney neutered Atmos track
DTS-HD MA 7.1 (syncs with a delay of -292) - 2017 BD

Thanks a lot Turisu. I'll update the list!

I intend to have the whole MCU collection posted, but I haven't had the time to check them all out yet.

Two curious notes: the 'Atmouse' seems to have spread over to Sony and affected their recent Spider-man: Far From Home, as the DTS 7.1 from the BD appears to sound much better. There's also a 5.1 from the 3D BD that I'll add to the comparison.

On the other hand, for 'Avengers: Age of Ultron', the first tamed track from Disney (back when the BD was released), sounds better now on the UHD atmos mix. It's still encoded with low levels, but it's better than the DTS-HD MA 7.1 and former even has foley effects not present on the latter: like when Hulk trows a car right in the beginning of the film (I believe 1:37 is the time stamp). Since it's mute on the BD and features the proper sound on the UHD, one might assume that the DTS track is faulty.

Are you certain that the delay here is correct? Comparing the timecodes of several corresponding frames in the BD and UHD video streams I have shows a difference of 19 frames which would make for a delay of +792ms.

That's some great information.

What I gathered so far is that actually going by a 'calculated' delay based on chapter and subtitle timing, it would be exactly +834ms (non US blu-rays). But comparing the tracks in Audacity revealed that the exact difference is +801 to 803ms. Since the Delay setting on MKV toolnix usually offsets by - 4ms, I set it at +810, to get a final delay in the order of 806ms.

But even if we apply the +834 delay, we're sill in the intersection for the next frame, so I guess it's safe to go with anything between the range of 792 to 834. Please correct me otherwise in case I'm mistaken.

Since I'm just starting out with audio syncing, this is actually a question propose for you or any other more experienced user: is one frame difference still safe for lip sync?

[Turisu]

If there's one thing I've gathered from this forum it's that there's no definitive method of syncing audio tracks. Different folks use different ways and the results are always great as far as I can tell. I used to compare waveforms until it was pointed out to me that, when audio tracks are remixed, individual sounds and cues may not be in exactly the same place so where one sound effect lines up, another may not. So I switched to using frame differences in the video streams.

Interesting info on Ultron. Could it be that the missing car sound was mute in the original theatrical mix and was fixed for the UHD? I'll see what different audio tracks I have access to to try and figure it out.

Later I'm planning to take a look at how the first Thor movie BD audio syncs to the UHD.

[bendermac]

Later I'm planning to take a look at how the first Thor movie BD audio syncs to the UHD.

If I interpret the comments for Thor UHD on Blu-ray.com correctly, it's not worth the upgrade from the BD (Video and Audio wise)

[BDgeek]

If there's one thing I've gathered from this forum it's that there's no definitive method of syncing audio tracks. Different folks use different ways and the results are always great as far as I can tell. I used to compare waveforms until it was pointed out to me that, when audio tracks are remixed, individual sounds and cues may not be in exactly the same place so where one sound effect lines up, another may not. So I switched to using frame differences in the video streams.

Interesting info on Ultron. Could it be that the missing car sound was mute in the original theatrical mix and was fixed for the UHD? I'll see what different audio tracks I have access to to try and figure it out.

Turisu,

thanks for the information! 

From the little experience I have,  I did notice that sound effects timestamp indeed may vary due to remixes, and in such cases I try to focus on the center channel (of course it would only work when comparing multichannel soundtracks.

I like your strategy to compare frame count, but what tool do you use to showcase the frame number?

But, sync method aside, I'd still like to hear some opinions the matter of a 'tolerable sync range' , do you think delays up to one frame difference (41,7ms) are perceivable lip sync wise? 

I have performed multiple blind tests and I could say I only started noticing delay with a degree of certainty after 20ms. But that's when playing both tracks simultaneously. However for movie lip sync wise, that gap would surely be larger, and I believe up to 40ms could still be safe, as the diference is very small.

I'm looking forward to your opinion on Avengers: AOU, as I cannot recall the sounds were present or not threatrically. 

I know it had an Atmos theatrical soudtrack and it would be great if the UHD indeed presents the original mix.




bendermac,

with the exception of The Incredible Hulk (issued by Universal Pictures) all Disney MCU UHDs are DNRed to some degree and that's very unfortunate. And in that regard, Iron Man 1, 2 and Thor are the worst offenders as they were majorly shot on film.

I can say I'm extremely sensitive to any noise reduction (I sit about 1,7 screen widths way from my display) and even though I haven't checked any of the above yet (they're sitting on a long line of films to catch up : ) I can say that having performed some cautions analysis on The Avengers (2012) and Captain America: The First Avenger I'd say it's pick your poison kind of situation.

While the DNR is easily noticiable for the trained eye, the benefits of the HDR and color expasion are very welcome. The Marvel movies are know to have a bland look altogether and the HDR / WCG works wonders for them.

In the Avengers for exemple, it got rid of the awful green tint that covered the BD image and SFX has benefited greatly from HDR, adding a great deal of realims to the picture.

Anyways, I still have to check out Thor, but I believe the same will apply. I'm looking forward to Turisu A/V assessments.

[Turisu]

I use Avidemux to compare video streams. It doesn't give frame numbers but it does give timecodes to the millisecond.

The BD audio for Thor syncs to the UHD with a time adjustment of -500ms (12 frames). I'm not the best person to judge which is the superior track as both my audio equipment and ears are in dire need of an upgrade . The reviews I've read however suggest that the BD track has plenty of low end whereas the UHD is rather tame.

[Turisu]

Iron Man (2008)

The original BD audio track is described by the blu-ray.com review as having almost room-shaking low end whereas the UHD audio is described as "somewhat challenged". So, to sync with the UHD video, the BD audio requires an adjustment on -1960ms (47 frames difference).