Looking for the "right" Terminator 2 color grading...

[PDB]

PDB,
Just out of curiosity, which Blu are you using as the source for your (awesome looking) regrade? I'm guessing the Lionsgate stealth re-release.

Yep using the stealth one since it has the best grain yet.

And BTW, earlier in this thread you said you thought PILF-2187 comes the closest to the theatrical timing. I beg to differ; I watched MrBrown's samples, and there are parts which have little to no blue tinting at all, where the film cells have a definite blue cast - for example, the hospital chase:

Lol, Servo....you are the one who sent me down this rabbit hole looking for more in green in T2(when you pointed out those green 35mm canal chase shots in my T2 thread) which lead me to 2187 which has green in spades. That's why I wanted to see 2187 which in the lddb thread looked closer to that. Now, that we have it thanks to MrBrown I agree 100% with you that's probably not right (which I said a couple of posting above). It is however a very interesting transfer and totally worth preserving since you see T2 without the blue.

Well that and one of the 2 TCs one does have a bit of green bias whereas the other is more blue/purple/teal (but still some green and other scenes are super red). The nice thing is the 2nd one starts with the Tri-Star before going to Carolco

TC1


TC2


Looks like TC2 is a winner comparing it to your shots. I'd still love to see as many 35mm shots as you have Servo to make sure.

[PDB]

Servo was generous enough to share all of his large collection of T2 35mm pics. Those pics (along with my 35mm pics and TCs) confirms my original thought that the 35mm prints are very blue/very teal and oddly some purple. The purple was something I thought was out of the norm but now looks to be right on the money. Here is a new approximation based on the info I have:

BD/ BD regrade

[The Aluminum Falcon]

That's a very extreme change! Not a complaint, but, as someone who's only experienced T2 on home video, it's interesting to see how different it was theatrically. Glad it's being accurately preserved.

Are you finding yourself tweaking a lot of your regrade to similar extremes to match the 35mm reference photos?

[Stamper]

Awesome, again the bikers scene, was like you graded it. I saw the film 14 times in the cinema on release, so I know how this looked

When I got the laserdisc, I was like WTF he changed the biker's scene color!

[spoRv]

Servo was generous to share all his large collection of T2 35mm pics. Those pics (along with my 35mm pics and TCs) confirms my original thought that the 35mm prints are very blue/very teal and oddly some purple. The purple was something I thought was out of the norm but now looks to be right on the money. Here is a new approximation based on the info I have:

BD/ BD regrade

...and I thought the trend today is to wrongly make all BD teal... I like this blue cast here!

[Stamper]

of interest here's what's missing from the T1 remastered image vs the full 1.66:1 unmasked print

[Image: 359906T1P.jpg]

[TServo2049]

I do wonder if the 35mm film cells might not have the same brightness you'd see projected. The audio tracks look white, but I wonder if maybe the biker bar stuff is too blue. Would it have looked exactly like that projected, or would the signboard on the back have been more white, and the rest of the scene balanced as such? The night stuff seems sufficiently blue, but should interiors like the biker bar or the "Get down" hallway scene be as blue projected as on these cell captures? I've tried white balancing toward things like the signboard here, or the white of the Pepsi logo on the vending machine in that hallway scene, I wonder if that'd be closer to projected?

These are very strong clues, but not sure they should be 100% adhered to? Maybe we should play with white balancing the film cell images too? (Of course the best thing would be to see a print, but having someone who saw it 14 times is the next best thing...)

[TServo2049]

of interest here's what's missing from the T1 remastered image vs the full 1.66:1 unmasked print

[Image: 359906T1P.jpg]

Also, all the Stan Winston animatronic shots are 4:3. (The eye surgery shots with the puppet, anything with the full size endoskeleton, the arm reaching for Sarah, etc.) I noticed this on that Derann cam recording on YT, but the film cells prove it.

[PDB]

So just a mission statement since Falcon asked. I do like to use 35mm frames to help grade but I use them as another source and not as gospel truth as to what a film should look like. The reason is (and you can see the problem earlier in this thread) is that you don't know how the person took the picture. A colored light source could influence the look. Make it warmer or colder. And the white balance or exposure on the camera could change the colors. Having said that like Servo I use the optics and try to balance that to "standard" white point. That hopefully gets you closer but you need more evidence. So in the case of T2 I have used those 35mm pics, the Russian 35mm telecine, a bluer laserdisc cap, a 35mm print of True Lies (which has a VERY similar blue night look) and the youtube clip recording.

The youtube clip sent me down the path of thinking the BD was way off. That there should be more blue, more teal and more purple. I removed some of the purple but was still unsatisfied with my regrade since it looked too pushed, so I put the project aside. It was this thread and my regrading of the open matte that got me interested again. That and the fact I know the bar scene and the mall scenes are missing a blue tint.

Anyway I have a theory, if I have a bunch of 35mm frames, I can use one 35mm frame to create a color correction lut and pply to much of the film. That way I can see if the other parts of that scene match up to other 35mm frames or the TC, LD, etc. So I used this pic that zoidberg, I think, posted:

35mm


and using dre's program to match it

BD/BD matched to 35mm


And then fixed the black level and white balance:

BD-35mm Black level fix/White balance fix


fixing the white balance also makes the credits appear white again.

And here is my refined regrade, done before getting Servo's 35mm sources:


Anyway grading the movie to one 35mm frame, allows me to check the other 35mm frames (and TC, youtube, LD, etc). If they match then I probably have the approximately color of T2

And after checking dozens of shots from the credits to John's first apperence, it does seem to approximately match, here is an example:

35mm/TC/The 1 LUT regrade/My regrade/Original BD


The idea is now hopefully I can determine with all the sources what T2 should approximately look like and move my regrade to match (which is already super close).

[Stamper]

Awesome, you nailed it! Is the refined grade the final? Cause the one where you fixed the white balance, the whites are burned. I prefer the refined, the fixed look like a TV movie.

You can see why the changes were made: the original looks dark on a crt TV and Cameron wanted people to actually see the faces and details. I hope the forthcoming remaster is timed to match the original. Cue to thousands screaming of teal on the internet again lol