Ashes of Time (1994) Theatrical Cut

[shiftyeyes]

Personally, I would rather have the HK theatrical version restored. I was initially very happy to findout that it was going to get a proper release finally, only to be stuck with Redux after everything was said and done. I for one don't get the endless bitching about how "confusing" the theatrical version is and never had issues with how the story unfolded, following the flow of events without questioning anything.

Anyhow, here is the link to the subtitle revision:

https://ufile.io/mz7ghnrw

I left the British English intact and restored what I had changed initially, which included, but not limited to:

realize/realise
learned/learnt
etc

A few instances of Engrish have been rectified, as well as something that shiftyeyes had pointed out to me concerning a yearly event known as the "Awakening of Insects". Further mentioning some misspellings of character names and locations that were inconsistently butchered with the original subs that I ended up changing.

Fixed quite a few lines that concerned the duality of the Murong siblings (not going into what the deal is there as it could be considered a spoiler) that were extremely messy once looked over. As well as some other odds and ends that I am probably forgetting.

Currently this will work for the Pony Canyon release, but could easily be modified to support a restoration with the timing shifted to remove the less than a minute of Japanese characters. I will state that I didn't go back to subtitle the lines explaining the setting as the Japanese Pony Canyon version wasn't my core reasoning behind the subs and would rather see a proper HK theatrical restoration with what is available.

Great job with the subtitles!

Unfortunately, I haven't really looked at the real differences between the Japanese and Hong Kong edits. I didn't notice much different when I went through the subtitles. All the dialogue is the same and in the same order. Maybe a few different edits here and there? But either way, I'm sure the end goal is to recreate the Asian cut, probably the HK cut. I know I really don't care to watch the movie without the big action stuff. 

As NeonBible has said, it looks like ideally we'd be able to source a reconstruction from the TF1 and PonyCanyon transfers.

[shiftyeyes]

I've taken a look at the TF1 transfer thanks to those Russians.

The underlying detail is very good, but the image is quite oversharpened (haloes, harsh grain mixed with compression noise). Color-wise, the screenshots looked a bit funky, but it's actually pretty nice.

I've played around with it in Topaz Video Enhance AI for fun, and I'm quite pleased with how the previews look. Luckily, the program has a "De-Halo" engine which seems to recover the image quite nicely. 

Unfortunately, in addition to missing the big action montages at the beginning and end, it's also missing the montage with the Murang Yin/Yang character at the end of her section, which I don't recall seeing mentioned.

[shiftyeyes]

Here's two screenshots from a quick HD upscale of a clip from the TF1 transfer.

       

Here's a side by side comparison from the program. Some detail loss, but fairly impressive what it can do to combat compression/video noise.

   

[PipperPiper]

Personally, I would rather have the HK theatrical version restored. I was initially very happy to findout that it was going to get a proper release finally, only to be stuck with Redux after everything was said and done. I for one don't get the endless bitching about how "confusing" the theatrical version is and never had issues with how the story unfolded, following the flow of events without questioning anything.

Anyhow, here is the link to the subtitle revision:

https://ufile.io/mz7ghnrw

I left the British English intact and restored what I had changed initially, which included, but not limited to:

realize/realise
learned/learnt
etc

A few instances of Engrish have been rectified, as well as something that shiftyeyes had pointed out to me concerning a yearly event known as the "Awakening of Insects". Further mentioning some misspellings of character names and locations that were inconsistently butchered with the original subs that I ended up changing.

Fixed quite a few lines that concerned the duality of the Murong siblings (not going into what the deal is there as it could be considered a spoiler) that were extremely messy once looked over. As well as some other odds and ends that I am probably forgetting.

Currently this will work for the Pony Canyon release, but could easily be modified to support a restoration with the timing shifted to remove the less than a minute of Japanese characters. I will state that I didn't go back to subtitle the lines explaining the setting as the Japanese Pony Canyon version wasn't my core reasoning behind the subs and would rather see a proper HK theatrical restoration with what is available.

Great job with the subtitles!

Unfortunately, I haven't really looked at the real differences between the Japanese and Hong Kong edits. I didn't notice much different when I went through the subtitles. All the dialogue is the same and in the same order. Maybe a few different edits here and there? But either way, I'm sure the end goal is to recreate the Asian cut, probably the HK cut. I know I really don't care to watch the movie without the big action stuff. 

As NeonBible has said, it looks like ideally we'd be able to source a reconstruction from the TF1 and PonyCanyon transfers.

I did what I could with what was available to me. It was a nice revisit once again and sad that the theatrical version is more or less forgotten thanks to the revisionist Redux. I will say that not all is perfect however, there are a few lines of Jacky Cheung yelling at his wife that are not translated that I believe are just him telling her to go home. With my Mandarin knowledge being at a sub-elementary level and my Cantonese being so much worse at a sub sub-standard level (pretty much non-existent mind you); I wasn't willing to write in something that I didn't know for sure. There are also instances where timing for a few subs could use minor tweaking, otherwise it appears as if things should be pretty good. I am much happier with the revision than the one that I initially released.

The upscales are interesting to say the least and are probably the best that the movie can look given the sources available. Although, I still keep hoping that a complete print could still be found. Anyone care to take a walk around your local Chinatown to see what film canisters one can trip over?

Not even going to hold my breath on such a thing happening. Just happy that a project can possibly come together with people lending a helping hand to make sure that the film isn't completely lost to time.

[shiftyeyes]

I did what I could with what was available to me. It was a nice revisit once again and sad that the theatrical version is more or less forgotten thanks to the revisionist Redux. I will say that not all is perfect however, there are a few lines of Jacky Cheung yelling at his wife that are not translated that I believe are just him telling her to go home. With my Mandarin knowledge being at a sub-elementary level and my Cantonese being so much worse at a sub sub-standard level (pretty much non-existent mind you); I wasn't willing to write in something that I didn't know for sure. There are also instances where timing for a few subs could use minor tweaking, otherwise it appears as if things should be pretty good. I am much happier with the revision than the one that I initially released.

While I like the Mei Ah subtitles and went to the trouble of trying to recreate them starting with your file, I gave up. I set out to preserve them (the line breaking, the six point ellipses, etc), but I realized the formatting didn't really track well and there were some inaccuracies. I ended up breaking up the longer lines, combining the short ones, switching to a three point ellipses, and even added some dialogue that wasn't subtitled. So that didn't quite work out from a preservation standpoint.  As I got towards the end of the movie,  Maggie Cheung's dialogue didn't even always make much sense and I started plugging stuff in from the Redux version. From what I gather, the Redux translation is likely more accurate and reads better. Maybe I'll share separate Mei Ah and Redux based subtitles some day if I ever get to it.

I'm also a bit of a lapsed Mandarin-speaker with only the faintest grasp of Cantonese. If I can swallow my pride, I can ask some family members and friends for help. Lol. 

[PipperPiper]

I did what I could with what was available to me. It was a nice revisit once again and sad that the theatrical version is more or less forgotten thanks to the revisionist Redux. I will say that not all is perfect however, there are a few lines of Jacky Cheung yelling at his wife that are not translated that I believe are just him telling her to go home. With my Mandarin knowledge being at a sub-elementary level and my Cantonese being so much worse at a sub sub-standard level (pretty much non-existent mind you); I wasn't willing to write in something that I didn't know for sure. There are also instances where timing for a few subs could use minor tweaking, otherwise it appears as if things should be pretty good. I am much happier with the revision than the one that I initially released.

While I like the Mei Ah subtitles and went to the trouble of trying to recreate them starting with your file, I gave up. I set out to preserve them (the line breaking, the six point ellipses, etc), but I realized the formatting didn't really track well and there were some inaccuracies. I ended up breaking up the longer lines, combining the short ones, switching to a three point ellipses, and even added some dialogue that wasn't subtitled. So that didn't quite work out from a preservation standpoint.  As I got towards the end of the movie,  Maggie Cheung's dialogue didn't even always make much sense and I started plugging stuff in from the Redux version. From what I gather, the Redux translation is likely more accurate and reads better. Maybe I'll share separate Mei Ah and Redux based subtitles some day if I ever get to it.

I'm also a bit of a lapsed Mandarin-speaker with only the faintest grasp of Cantonese. If I can swallow my pride, I can ask some family members and friends for help. Lol. 

The mentioned section with Jacky Cheung is the only part that wasn't subtitled from what I did. It has been forever since I have subjected myself to the Mei Ah subs, so I have forgotten about how they were laid out and what was missing from them.

Overall, the problem with translations is that 1+1 doesn't always = 2. There will always be something lost in translation, whether it be a pun/joke that given the context doesn't hit right due to the language barrier or some cultural reference that doesn't make sense. It is effectively a tug of war between having subtitles that are true to what the film makers were trying to convey, but ultimately doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things. Or they are so far removed from what the original was that it no longer a good representation. I personally think the best translations have to be somewhere in the middle of both extremes as not everything can be translated 1:1.

Tonal languages are super difficult to western speakers for a reason. It is not something that comes natural to us due to lack of exposure. Plus it is easy enough to butcher a word and have it mean something quite different to what is meant. Mandarin has fewer tones than Cantonese which truly is a nightmare in comparison.

[shiftyeyes]

Now that I have upscaled the TF1 and Pony Canyon versions, I'm looking at combining the two. There are two ways I can go about it: just taking the TF1 as the base and dropping the missing scenes from the Pony Canyon or I can edit them to sync to the Meh Ai.

Comparing the multiple versions, the Pony Canyon appears to be the most complete and has a frame at the start of some scenes that are cut from the other two. TF1 and Meh Ai are fairly similar and even line up frame for frame for long stretches, aside from the missing scenes in the TF1. Occasionally, the TF1 has extra frames or the odd insert shot runs a second or two little longer on the TF1 compared to Meh Ai. Aside from the action montages (beginning, Murang Yin & Yang, end), it cuts the footage that would've gone under the follow up text screens (describing what happens to Hong Qi, Huang Yaoshi, and Ouyang Feng).

TF1 has a much nicer image than either. The framing is tighter and the color is quite different though.

In terms of audio, the TF1 sounds cleaner but I had some difficulty getting it to sync back up with the 23.976fps version I created. Tried Audacity and the resulting file sounded like it was recorded through a tin can. Also tried Audition and it sounds better but the middle is a bit out of sync despite the beginning and end syncing up. So I'm not sure.

Currently in favor of just syncing everything to Meh Ai and using its Cantonese and Mandarin dub tracks.

[shiftyeyes]

I've been toiling away at reconstructing the original Asian cut over the last month or so. I'm an amateur at all this stuff but thought it'd be fun to learn. I thought it'd just be an easy recutting of the French and Japanese DVDs together, but turned out to be a lot more work. But I guess I'm a tinkerer and will never really be done.

- Upscaled the Japanese DVD using Topaz Video Enhance AI (free trial!). I think it looks as good as it can, but there are some video processing errors here and there. Such as leaves or grass in the background that are too digital looking. 
- Upscaled the French DVD using Topaz Video Enhance AI. Looks pretty solid overall. I thought the program did a good job of cleaning up some of the video noise on the French DVD. Unfortunately, the French DVD is in the 1.78:1 ratio and is cropped tighter compared to the Japanese and Mei Ah versions. If I could redo it, I'd probably go with a lower grain setting. Finding a balance is tricky. Too little and it looks too digital or the AI doesn't interpret noise vs detail correctly.
- Color corrected both to be more consistent with the Mei Ah DVD, which seemed to have a generally consistent color grade. The French DVD is alright, but a bit too dark and neutral. The Japanese DVD is a bit all over the place. I started doing this manually which was very difficult, but ended up using the color match tools in Resolve and tweaked it further. This process may have crushed the blacks or highlights here and there, but I tried my best to recover it (though it's not like the sources were great quality to begin with). 
- Edited them together to sync with the Japanese DVD (longest version)
- Recreated Chinese on screen text by extracting the text from the Redux version. Not really ideal as the font is a bit different.
- Retimed the French audio track from 25fps to 23.976fps (not entirely successful, couldn't get it to sync by doing a basic speed change, and the pitch sounds off whether I correct it or not). I ended up recutting the audio to sync to the Cantonese track on the Japanese version, and I still had problems with that as the lip sync was occasionally off in that track.
- Resynced the Mandarin track from the Mei Ah DVD. This is most important to include because Brigitte Lin's performance was in Mandarin (she's dubbed in the Cantonese track).
- I made a hybrid Cantonese track using the best sources, but it's probably all folly due to the pitch of the French track being off. Generally, the French DVD has the cleanest audio, followed by the Mandarin track. The Cantonese tracks on the the Japanese and Mei Ah DVDs are rather poor in sound quality.
- Started with PipperPiper's subtitles and brought it back closer to the Mei Ah DVD largely for preservation purposes.
- Made a new subtitle track based off the Redux translation but altered it to be more accurate, and corrected references to the source material the film is based on (such as using the generally accepted translations of Western Venom & Eastern Heretic), Chinese astrology stuff, etc.
- I made separate versions. One is more of a "Purist" version that just uses video from the French and Japanese versions. The other I called the "Heretic" version which uses a bit of higher quality footage from Redux (largely just the Chinese on screen text parts, but also some shots that looked pretty bad in the Japanese DVD upscale) and some other tricks that weren't 100% matches to the source. 

Stuff I didn't know how to do or gave up on:
- Dirt and scratch cleanup
- Video stabilization
- I wanted to create a hybrid Cantonese/Mandarin track with Brigitte Lin's original performance. The Redux version does something similar. Ultimately, the sound quality was too disparate to cut between Leslie Cheung in Cantonese and Brigitte Lin in Mandarin.
- Downloaded the 1994 soundtrack off of iTunes and considered making an isolated score. Started syncing some tracks, but I don't think it has everything and some tracks are edited differently. Great score though. I was surprised to find it available and the quality is very good. Recommended.

Anyway, I'm not entirely happy with it. Noticed a bug or two and a scene where the lip sync was a little off. Might make some corrections, but I'm pretty tired of working on this movie at this point. If I could go back and start over, I'd probably do a few things differently. Don't know if it's really up to everyone's standards, but I'm fairly proud of what I've put together so far.

   

[PipperPiper]

The caps look good. You gave it a try and as you said it is a learning experience. Perhaps somebody can give you a hand with tweaking things here and there depending on the issues present.

[shiftyeyes]

I think I tried doing too much at once. I'll try to simplify the scope of it and retool some things.