Here is a compare of the old MGM DVD with the german 1998 DVD

http://sd.caps-a-holic.com/vergleich.php...1&select=1

(2015-05-13, 02:19 AM)TServo2049 Wrote: The Terminator probably didn't have exactly the kind of teal it has now, but I'm betting that it didn't look exactly like the older home transfers either.

I got my hands on the original German DVD a few months back; it looks to have been transferred from a high-contrast IP or print master element struck for the German theatrical release. It has the German theatrical distributor notice optically superimposed over the Orion logo, and it has the original end credits without the acknowledgment to Harlan Ellison. It has more green/teal than any of the other home releases, and it's the same kind of washed-out, blown-out sort of look as (oddly enough) that Dark Knight screener I sent you.

I have a feeling that it's a closer representation of the theatrical colors, in the same way as the TDK screener - not exactly what a print would look like projected in a theater, but closer than any home transfer that was specifically re-balanced for home video.

(2015-05-13, 10:01 AM)Stamper Wrote: Here is a compare of the old MGM DVD with the german 1998 DVD

http://sd.caps-a-holic.com/vergleich.php...1&select=1

WOW, Thanks for the information.
It certainly looks that all this time Cameron is the 'King of the Teal'

I caught a 35mm showing of The Terminator in the late 90s, back then I was not as switched on to colour timings ect so my memory of it is pretty usless. I just thought it looked darker and pretty beat up. (The 'Ill Be Back' sequence had so many 'stolen' frames it created laughter throughout the theatre.)

Sorry for the off topic.

TServo2049 is pretty spots on, thought the remasters may at time differ sightly from the original prints (they have too, different tools, different times), there always was cyan in James Cameron films, as well as deep blue.

Thanks Stamper. Now I want a copy of that DVD. It does seem that the closest video to that German DVD is the re-mastered Blu-ray. Maybe Cameron was going through a "green" period at the time. After all that kind of looks like the Aliens 35mm and BD color timing too. Well I might have to consider that the BD of Aliens is right and the remastered BD of Terminator is right (still doesn't forgive the mono fiasco).

Edit: From the Derann 8mm

I saw Aliens about 8 times in theaters from 1986 to 1988. It was never like the LDs or VHS, however it wasn't like the Blu-ray either which is really green. It was just like the 35mm shots suggests.

Can't wait for your reconstruction!

I wouldn't go so far as to conclusively state that the BDs are "right"; they're just probably not as "wrong" as everyone assumed. They seem to resemble the theatrical timing while still being too modern/digital. The kind of power-window grading we see on the BDs was impossible with photochemical timing. For example, I have a feeling that theatrical prints of T1 did not have teal skies in the ending the way the BD does...

Some of these controversial regrades may well be attempts to digitally match untimed sources to theatrical timing, while simultaneously applying anachronistic modern power-window color pushing to get to that goal, and applying modern color theory where it shouldn't be applied. Maybe the technicians are used to doing things a certain way, and bastardizing the colors in the process? Maybe Cameron and other directors are so steeped in modern color that even if they were attempting to replicate the theatrical colors, revisionism still seeped in?

I've run into this kind of "more right but still wrong" paradox on other occasions too. The controversial U.S. BD transfer of The Neverending Story has colors that vaguely resemble a Derann clip that used to be on Vimeo (which I saved), while still being too digitally pushed, with the color pushes drowning out other hues that seemed to be visible on the film copy.

We really need to try get our hands on Derann prints somehow, they may be the closest thing we can get to the theatrical color without shelling out the money for 35mm. Also, I will get some screenshots of the German T1 DVD, and try to get the full thing up on MEGA (I already have the full-size VIDEO_TS rip sitting on my hard drive.)
 

(2015-05-13, 05:53 PM)TServo2049 Wrote: I wouldn't go so far as to conclusively state that the BDs are "right"; they're just probably not as "wrong" as everyone assumed. They seem to resemble the theatrical timing while still being too modern/digital. The kind of power-window grading we see on the BDs was impossible with photochemical timing. For example, I have a feeling that theatrical prints of T1 did not have teal skies in the ending the way the BD does...

Some of these controversial regrades may well be attempts to digitally match untimed sources to theatrical timing, while simultaneously applying anachronistic modern power-window color pushing to get to that goal, and applying modern color theory where it shouldn't be applied. Maybe the technicians are used to doing things a certain way, and bastardizing the colors in the process? Maybe Cameron and other directors are so steeped in modern color that even if they were attempting to replicate the theatrical colors, revisionism still seeped in?

I've run into this kind of "more right but still wrong" paradox on other occasions too. The controversial U.S. BD transfer of The Neverending Story has colors that vaguely resemble a Derann clip that used to be on Vimeo (which I saved), while still being too digitally pushed, with the color pushes drowning out other hues that seemed to be visible on the film copy.

We really need to try get our hands on Derann prints somehow, they may be the closest thing we can get to the theatrical color without shelling out the money for 35mm. Also, I will get some screenshots of the German T1 DVD, and try to get the full thing up on MEGA (I already have the full-size VIDEO_TS rip sitting on my hard drive.)
 

Of course you are right Servo, I'm just saying the BDs are by far the closest to those examples and while maybe not perfect, they seem to be an honest attempt to bring back the theatrical timing that seems to have been lost in the years of video. Your "more right but still wrong". But I think people's gut reactions to the new color timing (including mine) were maybe wrong.

I also agree with the whole revisionism angle but I also think we have seen the modern computer colorist can get creative on their own or worse lazy and just apply blanket grades. Good intentions; executed poorly. And then, like you said, sometimes directors do lose their minds. Also computers will never be able to 100% duplicate the chemical process. They can get close but it is in the end the differences between apples and oranges. Unfortunately, without vintage prints we will never know for sure what's truly right.

Speaking of which I really would love to get a hold of some of those Derann prints but I think I'm finding out that tracking many of those down is as hard or harder then finding 35mm prints of the same films. Deranns seem to be extremely coveted. And funny you should mention the Never Ending Story. I just saw someone had posted pics from his 8mm Derann (I think) print:



Compare that to Team Blu's work and the German BD: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.c...0/page/38/

Are there more pics? Please PM me. (BTW, the video clip I have is an excerpt of a digest print, it doesn't go very far into the film.)

So back to Aliens itself, the 1995 LD based regrade is on hold now?

(2015-05-14, 03:29 PM)TServo2049 Wrote: Are there more pics? Please PM me. (BTW, the video clip I have is an excerpt of a digest print, it doesn't go very far into the film.)

So back to Aliens itself, the 1995 LD based regrade is on hold now?

Let me find those pics for you and I'll PM them to you TServo.

I think its on hold for a bit till I figure out what I want to do. That's fine since I'm finishing up Alien and BR and furiously working on MM2. So there was plenty to do before Aliens anyway.

Great, MM2 would be the shit! It is TIME! (for a fix) LOL